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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 01 May 2018

01 May 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Rape Crisis Centres and Prosecutions

I add my thanks and congratulations to my friend and colleague Kez Dugdale for bringing this hugely important motion before us this evening.

Until very recently, public discourse around rape and sexual assault was shrouded in false assumptions and stigma. Much of that still exists and endures. I am ashamed to say that I carried some of those assumptions myself, but I am very glad to say that joining the task force on violence against women, as I did some three years before I was elected to the Scottish Parliament, helped me to understand the profound and dehumanising impact that rape and sexual assault can have on not just women but men, although the impact is predominantly on women. It was in that group that I was proud to play some role in shaping the equally safe strategy, which has been referenced a number of times in the debate.

My work in that group was underpinned by my membership of the task force on child sexual exploitation. I make that point because many of the themes that we discussed in that task force were apposite to some of the solution around changing the culture, by which I mean a change to our understanding of safe relationships, consent and respect. We need to germinate that understanding and grow it in our children and young people so that they understand the environment of relationships and what healthy relationships look like.

Our response to rape has to be a whole-system response, but I am glad that Kez Dugdale has focused her motion on our criminal justice system’s response. It is very easy for us to use members’ business debates as a forum in which to bemoan a situation and to wail, gnash teeth and cry “Foul!” about the many things that are wrong. However, Kez Dugdale’s five-point plan represents a very powerful index of positive action that we and our criminal justice colleagues can take forward to make things better. Like others, I welcome the response this morning of the Lord President of the Court of Session, Lord Carloway—I think that it was partly in response to the debate happening—with regard to making it easier for people to come forward and give evidence outside of court. I would certainly lend my support to that proposal.

I will touch on something that Daniel Johnson articulated very well, which is the dichotomy between the utilitarian need to have more rape cases brought to justice and the needs of the individual complainant. That issue came up in our Equalities and Human Rights Committee inquiry into human rights, in that we have competing human rights: we have the metanarrative of human rights in our society with regard to rape not continuing and the rights of the individual to be protected from being retraumatised. That is why I am compelled to say that the advice and policies of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service in compelling reluctant complainers, which come from the best of intentions, will have profound and unintended human consequences for the individual.

It is not hard to understand how the Crown Office got to that position. It is scandalous that some 1,800 rapes have been reported in the past year, yet only 270 have been brought to prosecution. That is a terrible statistic. However, part of the reason is not people’s reluctance to come forward but their lack of confidence in the system. The fact that those 270 cases resulted in only 125 convictions would undermine anybody’s confidence in the system. In addition—my friend Tavish Scott made this point very well, I think—people have a colossal amount of time to wait before they have their day in court and that moment to tell their story, and at many points along that journey they are being retraumatised.

I thank Kez Dugdale once again for bringing this important debate to the Parliament tonight, and I assure her of our continuing support on the matter. Her five-point plan represents a really positive and progressive step in taking the debate forward.

17:55  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S5M-11217, in the name of Kezia Dugdale, on support for rape crisis centres and prosecution...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I thank colleagues for staying for this debate on what I think is a critical issue. The motion before us has four key themes. The first recognises that ther...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
It is difficult for me to believe that we are having this debate. We know it is difficult enough for someone to report a rape. We also know that the earlier...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind all members who wish to speak that they are required to press the request-to-speak button. I am looking at a member who has not pressed the button. ...
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
I thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing this important topic to the chamber. When I first read in the press about this change of policy, I was shocked. Frankly, I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I have 11 members still wishing to speak. I am therefore minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 8.14.3, to extend the debate by up to 30 minute...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on support for Rape Crisis centres and prosecutions. I thank Kezia Dugdale for lodging the motion, which be...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I rise to my feet with a considerable amount of trepidation. I am mindful, as I speak, that I do not have experience in two critical ways. I have not been a ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, but you must conclude.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will conclude, then—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
No. You really must conclude, and I will tell you why if you sit down, please, Mr Johnson. We cannot extend the meeting further so, if everybody goes over t...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
You are quite right, Presiding Officer, that this is a very important debate, and it is on a very emotional subject. It is some time since my police days, bu...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I endorse and agree with Kezia Dugdale’s opening speech and the five points that she powerfully made. There are not many times that a sensitive, tricky, diff...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I congratulate Kezia Dugdale on securing time for this debate and on her powerful contribution this evening. It is good to see cross-party unity in this cham...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I commend Kezia Dugdale on bringing forward this motion, which I know reflects her personal conviction and political commitment. I would like to focus my con...
Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing forward today’s debate on a very important subject. I want to take this opportunity to note the work of the rape crisis ce...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I add my thanks and congratulations to my friend and colleague Kez Dugdale for bringing this hugely important motion before us this evening. Until very rece...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing this important debate to the Parliament. I think that there is a strong recognition in the chamber this evening that...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate Kezia Dugdale on securing time to bring this vital issue to the chamber. The issue is complex and emotive. The Crown Office and Procura...
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for taking urgent action to secure cross-party support to allow this important debate to go ahead. I pay tribute to her tireless ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call the Solicitor General to close the debate. You have up to seven minutes, or thereabouts. 18:08
The Solicitor General for Scotland (Alison Di Rollo)
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing the matter to the chamber and for giving me an opportunity, which I consider to be very important, to clarify what t...
Kezia Dugdale Lab
I am listening very carefully to what the Solicitor General has to say. I invite her to respond to the reality of the testimony that I have put forward, whic...
The Solicitor General
We have discussed that with Rape Crisis and will work with it and Police Scotland, because in dealing with victims and encouraging them to come forward and s...
The Solicitor General
The work that we are doing with Rape Crisis is about saying to victims, “Although it is our decision to prosecute, nevertheless we will engage with you. We w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
He does. He has been on his feet for a wee while. Will you take the intervention, Solicitor General?
The Solicitor General
Yes.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Although the Solicitor General says that the policy is not about compelling witnesses, she also says that the court reserves the right to do so. Those are ex...
The Solicitor General
No, I cannot agree with that. The difficulty with it is legal and ethical, and comes down to positive obligations and convention rights to which we are subje...
John Finnie Green
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention on that point?