Committee
Audit Committee, 06 Feb 2008
06 Feb 2008 · S3 · Audit Committee
Item of business
“A review of free personal and nursing care”
Thank you, Mr Black. The report and your comments this morning make a powerful contribution to what is probably one of the most significant debates facing the Parliament both now and in future years.I am aware that this is not the end of the debate, because the work that Lord Sutherland is undertaking to review the policy will probably throw up more questions. We may need to return to the issue.I whole-heartedly endorse a couple of points that you made. You spoke about taking action to tackle ambiguities. Such action is long overdue. Ministers in the previous Administration attempted to address the issue and current ministers are attempting to do so. It is a disgrace that eight councils in Scotland are still charging for food preparation. Leaving aside whether you agree with the policy of free personal care, if there is such a policy it should be applied and implemented consistently—something needs to be done about that.I was intrigued by your comment towards the end of your remarks that it was not apparent that the policy has made a difference to older people on lower incomes. As with so many of the policies that we are pursuing in this Parliament, many people throughout Scotland are benefiting, but people on lower incomes are not benefiting. We should seriously reflect on that. I thank you for drawing it to our attention.I will ask about your comments that longer-term cost projections are urgently needed. From the work that you have done so far, do you think that, if those projections are not delivered, there could be implications for the whole of the Government's budget?
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
The next item is a briefing from the Auditor General for Scotland on his report entitled "A review of free personal and nursing care".
Mr Robert Black (Auditor General for Scotland):
As I am sure members of the committee are aware, our report on free personal and nursing care was published at the end of last week, on 1 February. It is a j...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you, Mr Black. The report and your comments this morning make a powerful contribution to what is probably one of the most significant debates facing th...
Mr Black:
In relation to free personal care in particular, in the short term—I am thinking about the period since the policy was introduced—it is reasonable to conclud...
Murdo Fraser:
Con
The report is important and helpful. Free personal care was a flagship policy of the previous Executive, but it was supported by all the parties—there are no...
The Convener:
Lab
Just before you answer that, to be fair, Murdo, like your earlier comments, that challenge should apply not just to the Government but to the Parliament. We ...
Mr Black:
I am not really in a position to answer the first part of the question. On the second part, I strongly encourage the Government to examine the long-term fina...
Murdo Fraser:
Con
Is Lord Sutherland examining long-term costs? Has he engaged with Audit Scotland on that aspect?
Mr Black:
He is certainly examining the financial implications, but in a wider context than free personal care. He is attempting to locate the free personal and nursin...
Willie Coffey:
SNP
Your report mentions that 27 councils are spending less on older people's services in general. That implies that they are spending more on free personal care...
Mr Black:
When we last reported on this issue to the previous Audit Committee a couple of years ago, it expressed concern that many councils relied disproportionately ...
Willie Coffey:
SNP
The implication of what you say is concerning. Could it be that the local authorities do not know how much they are spending on this type of care?
Mr Black:
There is a doubt about the hard auditable numbers.
Andrew Welsh:
SNP
Once again, Audit Scotland has performed a great service in shedding light on this important issue. It is a salutary lesson to all political decision-makers,...
George Foulkes:
Lab
What is the balance between the number of people who are receiving free personal care in their homes and those who are receiving it in institutions? I do not...
Mr Black:
You are right, Lord Foulkes; the information is in exhibit 1. The numbers in the text just above the exhibit give the basic figures.
George Foulkes:
Lab
So, according to those figures, the number of people who receive free personal care at home has gone up from 27,337 to 41,386, and the number of people who r...
Mr Black:
The latter two figures refer to the numbers of people who are fully publicly funded. The figures above that bullet point, on page 6 of the report, refer to t...
George Foulkes:
Lab
That number has increased.
Mr Black:
It has gone up.
George Foulkes:
Lab
Right. It was never part of your remit to consider the quality of care in some of the private care homes—that is a separate issue.
Mr Black:
Absolutely. There are two issues there. First, as I indicated in my opening remarks, the policy has never been stated in terms of what it was designed to do ...
George Foulkes:
Lab
The summary at the beginning of the report says:"The UK government and the Welsh Assembly decided to implement free nursing care only in England and Wales on...
Barbara Hurst (Audit Scotland):
The Government in England has not implemented—
George Foulkes:
Lab
Personal care?
Barbara Hurst:
Yes.
George Foulkes:
Lab
Right. I have it.
Barbara Hurst:
Free personal care has not been implemented in England and Wales because of the affordability issue. I understand that Wales looked into it and, although it ...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Is there any indication why there is not a huge demand for free personal care in England or Wales?
Barbara Hurst:
It is such a complex area of interrelated services that it is difficult to isolate views about one element of a care package. It could be that what we need t...