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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 01 May 2018

01 May 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Rape Crisis Centres and Prosecutions
Finnie, John Green Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

You are quite right, Presiding Officer, that this is a very important debate, and it is on a very emotional subject. It is some time since my police days, but I can say that there has been an outstanding change and improvement in attitude and response from the service in relation to the issue. I mentioned earlier this afternoon the confidence in Police Scotland about handling many issues to do not just with sexual crime but with domestic violence. The link with the prosecution service—the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service—and the more humane handling of cases are key to that.

Part of the weakness is in our courts. Like others, I was heartened to hear Lord Carloway speak this morning about the opportunities that may exist for recording testimony and cross-examination. My colleague Margaret Mitchell mentioned legislation that has been dealt with in Parliament in recent times. During the passage of the Abusive Behaviour and Sexual Harm (Scotland) Act 2016 and the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018 I was privileged to hear the private testimony of individuals, and I have to say that it was harrowing. The state’s way of helping an individual should not inflict more grief on them.

Terminology is very important. The public interest is absolutely fundamental. I attended the recent briefing by the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General, who made compelling arguments. There is an obligation on us to act collectively and in the public interest. Of course, key to that is the role of the complainer. That is the correct term—the person is the complainer. The term “survivor” is appropriate, but in the legal context the term is “complainer”. The wellbeing of the complainer is key, because we want good-quality evidence, which we would not get were we to compel people. However, there is a very fine balance to be struck, as a couple of members have said.

As I understand it, victims of sexual abuse and rape are already treated uniquely by being given a say that is not necessarily given to victims of assault or housebreaking. It is important that there is already recognition of the significance of the issue.

The question of disengagement and the humane response to it was touched on in the briefing that I attended. Disengagement can happen for a number of reasons. Kezia Dugdale mentioned a report, but there is a lot of other information on the issue. All the requests are reasonable, but a crucial one that I think everyone would go along with is for more research, in order that we can understand what is involved.

If I have one disappointment, it is that although this is a well-attended members’ business debate, it would have been good if there had been a minister here who has responsibility for dishing out money, because the support mechanisms that are put in place are key. It might be that there are other pressing engagements.

Today, I met Rape Crisis Scotland. Having met Ms Brindley, and having met the Solicitor General and the Lord Advocate last week, I do not think that they are poles apart. However, I say as gently as possible that the situation is a bit of a public relations disaster. We all want to increase the number of successful sexual crime prosecutions. The key to that is the quality of the evidence; there are opportunities that will come with Lord Carloway’s proposals.

I am sure that the Lord Advocate will reflect on the points that have been made. I ask that there be further engagement with Rape Crisis Scotland, because I imagine that members are as one on where we should be going.

17:35  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S5M-11217, in the name of Kezia Dugdale, on support for rape crisis centres and prosecution...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I thank colleagues for staying for this debate on what I think is a critical issue. The motion before us has four key themes. The first recognises that ther...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
It is difficult for me to believe that we are having this debate. We know it is difficult enough for someone to report a rape. We also know that the earlier...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind all members who wish to speak that they are required to press the request-to-speak button. I am looking at a member who has not pressed the button. ...
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
I thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing this important topic to the chamber. When I first read in the press about this change of policy, I was shocked. Frankly, I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I have 11 members still wishing to speak. I am therefore minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 8.14.3, to extend the debate by up to 30 minute...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on support for Rape Crisis centres and prosecutions. I thank Kezia Dugdale for lodging the motion, which be...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I rise to my feet with a considerable amount of trepidation. I am mindful, as I speak, that I do not have experience in two critical ways. I have not been a ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, but you must conclude.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will conclude, then—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
No. You really must conclude, and I will tell you why if you sit down, please, Mr Johnson. We cannot extend the meeting further so, if everybody goes over t...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
You are quite right, Presiding Officer, that this is a very important debate, and it is on a very emotional subject. It is some time since my police days, bu...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I endorse and agree with Kezia Dugdale’s opening speech and the five points that she powerfully made. There are not many times that a sensitive, tricky, diff...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I congratulate Kezia Dugdale on securing time for this debate and on her powerful contribution this evening. It is good to see cross-party unity in this cham...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I commend Kezia Dugdale on bringing forward this motion, which I know reflects her personal conviction and political commitment. I would like to focus my con...
Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing forward today’s debate on a very important subject. I want to take this opportunity to note the work of the rape crisis ce...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I add my thanks and congratulations to my friend and colleague Kez Dugdale for bringing this hugely important motion before us this evening. Until very rece...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing this important debate to the Parliament. I think that there is a strong recognition in the chamber this evening that...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate Kezia Dugdale on securing time to bring this vital issue to the chamber. The issue is complex and emotive. The Crown Office and Procura...
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for taking urgent action to secure cross-party support to allow this important debate to go ahead. I pay tribute to her tireless ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call the Solicitor General to close the debate. You have up to seven minutes, or thereabouts. 18:08
The Solicitor General for Scotland (Alison Di Rollo)
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing the matter to the chamber and for giving me an opportunity, which I consider to be very important, to clarify what t...
Kezia Dugdale Lab
I am listening very carefully to what the Solicitor General has to say. I invite her to respond to the reality of the testimony that I have put forward, whic...
The Solicitor General
We have discussed that with Rape Crisis and will work with it and Police Scotland, because in dealing with victims and encouraging them to come forward and s...
The Solicitor General
The work that we are doing with Rape Crisis is about saying to victims, “Although it is our decision to prosecute, nevertheless we will engage with you. We w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
He does. He has been on his feet for a wee while. Will you take the intervention, Solicitor General?
The Solicitor General
Yes.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Although the Solicitor General says that the policy is not about compelling witnesses, she also says that the court reserves the right to do so. Those are ex...
The Solicitor General
No, I cannot agree with that. The difficulty with it is legal and ethical, and comes down to positive obligations and convention rights to which we are subje...
John Finnie Green
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention on that point?