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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 01 May 2018

01 May 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Rape Crisis Centres and Prosecutions
Johnson, Daniel Lab Edinburgh Southern Watch on SPTV

I rise to my feet with a considerable amount of trepidation. I am mindful, as I speak, that I do not have experience in two critical ways. I have not been a victim of rape; I have not endured that most horrific of crimes. I can only imagine what it must be like not only to suffer the disempowerment that Rhoda Grant described very well, but then to have to go through that again in a court of law. I can only imagine how traumatising that must be; how difficult it must be to face and what a person must do to in order bring themselves to go through that—to relive those experiences just to ensure that justice is served. Nor am I a lawyer, so I have not had to prosecute such cases. I am mindful of the difficulties that the authorities face, as they seek to prosecute.

With that in mind, I am supportive of and fully aligned with my colleague Kezia Dugdale’s earlier comments. I have huge concerns about the policy both in terms of how it has been framed and in principle, so I support Kezia Dugdale’s calls for the policy to be paused and for implementation of her five-step plan.

Before I set out why, I will say clearly where I am in absolute lockstep with what both the law officers are trying to achieve and what everyone in the chamber is trying to achieve.

There have to be three clear priorities when it comes to dealing with cases of rape. First, we have to ensure that more victims come forward. That seems to be happening anyway, but we need to go much further; we need to give victims—the survivors—confidence about coming forward, so that we can ensure that people get access to justice and that the people who perpetrate these vile acts are brought to justice.

We must also ensure that giving evidence becomes a better experience for victims of rape. I think that Lord Carloway’s intervention today is hugely useful, and that the steps in Kezia Dugdale’s plan are hugely important.

Above all else, when victims come forward—when survivors come forward—in addition to improvements that we make to their experience, we need ultimately to make sure that we improve the conviction rate. It must be a priority that when cases are brought, we see successful convictions.

I will turn to why I have issues with the policy as it has been articulated so far. First, I have huge concerns about when reluctance turns to refusal. We have heard the issues that have been set out by the law officers; actions must be given up when witnesses are reluctant to give evidence. We have heard that there would never be circumstances in which a victim would be brought to court in the back of police car.

However, what I have yet to hear is how that is framed—an articulation of when a person goes from simply being reluctant to refusing. The policy has to set out clearly how that would be understood, how it would be assessed, and whether individuals who are reluctant are genuinely giving consent, because they have to consent to giving evidence in court. That has to be a fundamental principle if we are not going to simply disempower individuals further—but where is it set out in the policy?

Secondly, there is the classic utilitarian argument about the public interest versus the individual interest. I understand the overarching desire to ensure that we protect the wider public while balancing the interests of the individual against that, but we have to do so with huge sensitivity and caution. It is a fundamental principle, not just of the courts of justice, but of democracy, that wider interests cannot simply trump the rights of the individual. There is a balance to be struck, but there needs to be articulation of how that balance is understood and how it is to be struck.

Fundamentally, the issue is about trust versus policy. It is vital that any policy has trust and that individuals who come forward trust the system and the process. I do not understand how we can expect individuals to trust the system if they feel that they will be compelled to give evidence when they no longer wish to do so. Ultimately, the issue is about witnesses coming forward. If they perceive that they will be compelled to give evidence when they no longer wish to do so, I cannot see how that will be anything other than a detriment to the principles that I set out at the beginning of my speech about ensuring that more people come forward and that they have a better experience of the justice system.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S5M-11217, in the name of Kezia Dugdale, on support for rape crisis centres and prosecution...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I thank colleagues for staying for this debate on what I think is a critical issue. The motion before us has four key themes. The first recognises that ther...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
It is difficult for me to believe that we are having this debate. We know it is difficult enough for someone to report a rape. We also know that the earlier...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I remind all members who wish to speak that they are required to press the request-to-speak button. I am looking at a member who has not pressed the button. ...
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
I thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing this important topic to the chamber. When I first read in the press about this change of policy, I was shocked. Frankly, I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I have 11 members still wishing to speak. I am therefore minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 8.14.3, to extend the debate by up to 30 minute...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on support for Rape Crisis centres and prosecutions. I thank Kezia Dugdale for lodging the motion, which be...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I rise to my feet with a considerable amount of trepidation. I am mindful, as I speak, that I do not have experience in two critical ways. I have not been a ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, but you must conclude.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will conclude, then—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
No. You really must conclude, and I will tell you why if you sit down, please, Mr Johnson. We cannot extend the meeting further so, if everybody goes over t...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
You are quite right, Presiding Officer, that this is a very important debate, and it is on a very emotional subject. It is some time since my police days, bu...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I endorse and agree with Kezia Dugdale’s opening speech and the five points that she powerfully made. There are not many times that a sensitive, tricky, diff...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I congratulate Kezia Dugdale on securing time for this debate and on her powerful contribution this evening. It is good to see cross-party unity in this cham...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I commend Kezia Dugdale on bringing forward this motion, which I know reflects her personal conviction and political commitment. I would like to focus my con...
Maurice Corry (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing forward today’s debate on a very important subject. I want to take this opportunity to note the work of the rape crisis ce...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I add my thanks and congratulations to my friend and colleague Kez Dugdale for bringing this hugely important motion before us this evening. Until very rece...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing this important debate to the Parliament. I think that there is a strong recognition in the chamber this evening that...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I, too, congratulate Kezia Dugdale on securing time to bring this vital issue to the chamber. The issue is complex and emotive. The Crown Office and Procura...
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for taking urgent action to secure cross-party support to allow this important debate to go ahead. I pay tribute to her tireless ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call the Solicitor General to close the debate. You have up to seven minutes, or thereabouts. 18:08
The Solicitor General for Scotland (Alison Di Rollo)
I, too, thank Kezia Dugdale for bringing the matter to the chamber and for giving me an opportunity, which I consider to be very important, to clarify what t...
Kezia Dugdale Lab
I am listening very carefully to what the Solicitor General has to say. I invite her to respond to the reality of the testimony that I have put forward, whic...
The Solicitor General
We have discussed that with Rape Crisis and will work with it and Police Scotland, because in dealing with victims and encouraging them to come forward and s...
The Solicitor General
The work that we are doing with Rape Crisis is about saying to victims, “Although it is our decision to prosecute, nevertheless we will engage with you. We w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
He does. He has been on his feet for a wee while. Will you take the intervention, Solicitor General?
The Solicitor General
Yes.
Daniel Johnson Lab
Although the Solicitor General says that the policy is not about compelling witnesses, she also says that the court reserves the right to do so. Those are ex...
The Solicitor General
No, I cannot agree with that. The difficulty with it is legal and ethical, and comes down to positive obligations and convention rights to which we are subje...
John Finnie Green
Will the Solicitor General take an intervention on that point?