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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 21 March 2018

21 Mar 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Legal Continuity) (Scotland) Bill

On 27 February, which seems like an impossibly long time ago now, I came to the chamber to set out the Government’s reasons for introducing the bill. In the three weeks and one day since then, the bill has been scrutinised by five committees of the Parliament. More than 230 amendments were considered at stage 2 during not one but two unprecedented evening committee sessions. The amount of time that was spent at stage 2 was longer than the time spent on the Social Security (Scotland) Bill, for example. We have just considered a further 65 amendments at stage 3. We are now here—I am sorry—for a further evening session to pass the bill on the timetable that was set out by the Parliament on 1 March.

In our pre-stage 2 debate—another procedural innovation—I said that the Parliament had risen to the occasion, and I repeat that sentiment this evening. I put on record the Government’s appreciation of the efforts of many people who have brought the bill to a successful conclusion.

Let me start with the Parliament’s staff—those in the chamber office, and the clerks to various committees who organised evidence sessions at short notice, and who received and processed the amendments at stages 2 and 3. The team at the Finance and Constitution Committee did an outstanding job in guiding the committee and other members through the complexities of the stage 2 amendments. We all owe a particular debt to the convener, my good friend Bruce Crawford, for his absolutely masterful chairing.

I record my appreciation of those involved in the logistics: the security staff; catering; the official report; television and audio teams; and other facilities staff who are necessary to make the chamber work. All of them rose magnificently to the occasion, including the management of the Parliament, under the clerk, Sir Paul Grice.

Finally, I thank other members for their contributions. We are all aware of the unusual features of the legislation and the procedure. Members have ensured that both were tested to ensure that they were justified, sometimes using a great deal of imagination or what one might even call ingenuity. The bill that has emerged is improved as a result of all our efforts.

I remind members of why the bill is necessary. Nine months ago, the United Kingdom Government introduced a bill that would directly affect the competence of the Parliament and the Scottish Government. In effect, that bill sought to turn back the clock to 1973, and to allow the UK Government—and it alone—to redesign devolution as if the UK had never been in the European Union or the common market or the European Community. I will leave aside the difficulty of travelling in time. As the late Stephen Hawking observed:

“If time travel is possible, where are the tourists from the future?”

However, it was clear from the outset that that provision was never going to get the agreement of any devolved Administration worth its salt. To quote the unanimous view of the Finance and Constitution Committee, it was obviously

“incompatible with the devolution settlement in Scotland”.

That was also true in Wales, where our colleagues in the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly took a similarly robust view of the UK Government’s proposals. Indeed, one of the features of this process has been the close working of the Welsh and Scottish Governments—I pay particular tribute to my colleague Mark Drakeford—and members of their Parliament and Assembly, and indeed members and peers at Westminster from across political parties. All have sought to address the concerns about devolution that have been raised by the UK bill.

However, despite the almost unanimous calls for change to respect the principles of devolution, the UK Government has yet to agree amendments that could get the consent of this Parliament or the Welsh Assembly. Hence our alternatives—the continuity bills. Our bill will ensure that Scots law continues to operate effectively following withdrawal should the Parliament be unable to consent to many provisions of the UK’s bill.

We now invite Parliament to pass the bill this evening, in parallel with our colleagues in the Welsh Assembly, whose bill is completing its parliamentary stages as I speak. It has, indeed, just gone into stage 4, although I am not proposing that we have a stage 4. In fact, I understand that the Welsh bill has been passed in the last few minutes.

In asking Parliament to support the bill, I emphasise what the Government has made clear from the outset: our aim remains to reach agreement to satisfactory changes to the UK bill. That would be the best path because it is desirable to have the relevant powers all in the same place. Also, and perhaps more important, reaching agreement would send an important signal. It would show that devolution will be properly respected. It would acknowledge the constitution under which we live. It would show that the different Governments of the UK can sit down and negotiate to reach a mutually acceptable outcome, and we have been trying to do so. It would show that this way of doing business, rather than imposition, should be the norm no matter the political composition of the Governments or their constitutional preferences.

I remain hopeful that an agreement can be reached. The First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and I have all made clear that that is our firm objective and we will do our very best to achieve it. However, passing the bill will be an important sign that Parliament is resolute in defending devolution and serious in its consideration of the issues at stake, and it will give us an important alternative in the negotiations that remain ahead of us.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-11136, in the name of Michael Russell, on the UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Legal Continuity) (S...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the UK Withdrawal from...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Michael Russell to speak to and move the motion. 18:23
The Minister for UK Negotiations on Scotland’s Place in Europe (Michael Russell) SNP
On 27 February, which seems like an impossibly long time ago now, I came to the chamber to set out the Government’s reasons for introducing the bill. In the ...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
As the minister knows, there are grave doubts about the legislative competence of the bill. In order to clarify and clear up those doubts authoritatively—tha...
Michael Russell SNP
The Scottish Government, of which the Lord Advocate is a member, has no grave doubts. It has no doubt that the bill is competent. That is absolutely clear to...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
I open on a point of consensus—like my friend and colleague Murdo Fraser, I am always looking for consensus. On behalf of the Scottish Conservatives, I echo ...
John Swinney SNP
Will the member give way?
Adam Tomkins Con
The Lord Advocate should have the courage of his legal convictions and he should use his powers under the Scotland Act 1998 to refer the provisions of the bi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Please sit down, Mr Swinney.
Adam Tomkins Con
First, there is the point about its compatibility with European law, which is the point that the Presiding Officer wrote about in his opinion on legislative ...
John Swinney SNP
Does Mr Tomkins not accept that for the Scottish Government to present the bill to Parliament, we would have had to seek the authority of the Lord Advocate—S...
Adam Tomkins Con
Of course I accept that. That is a matter of fact, as Mr Swinney well knows, but there is more than one legal opinion about this. There is also the legal opi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you. Interruption. Excuse me. It is very difficult to hear if members yell.
John Swinney SNP
It was not worth listening to.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Mr Swinney! No one is above the chair in this chamber. 18:37
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
It is always depressing to follow Boris Johnson, Presiding Officer. This bill has gone through Parliament at breakneck speed. From the outset, if we are hon...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
I am unclear on the timing of speeches, Presiding Officer.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You have four minutes.
Neil Findlay Lab
You have one minute.
Patrick Harvie Green
I will have to disappoint Mr Findlay and go on for just a little more than a minute. I think that, fundamentally, Parliament has done its job in this proces...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
This Parliament is stronger for having people such as Adam Tomkins in it. He brings a wealth of experience and a hinterland—as people in other walks of life ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate, with speeches of four minutes. 18:50
Ivan McKee (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) SNP
Normally, members state at the start of their remarks how pleased they are to speak in a debate. I must say that, today, for me, that is not the case. We do ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The bill is not one that the Scottish Conservatives ever wanted to see. We made it clear from the start that we consider it to be unnecessary and beyond the ...
Patrick Harvie Green
Will the member give way?
Murdo Fraser Con
I am sorry, but I have only four minutes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You can take the intervention if you wish. I can give you a little extra time.
Murdo Fraser Con
Well, if I have a moment, I will give way.
Patrick Harvie Green
I am grateful. Mr Fraser knows that he has successfully improved the bill, and I have supported some of his amendments. However, he says that the bill still ...