Meeting of the Parliament 20 March 2018
The Scottish Government is focused on ensuring that there is a bright future for forestry in Scotland and that forestry’s substantial contribution to economic, environmental and social outcomes continues to be both recognised and celebrated. I know that many members share that ambition.
I know, too, that we all value the hard work and commitment of the staff in Forestry Commission Scotland and Forest Enterprise Scotland, and that this group of amendments is largely motivated by a desire to promote their interests. I understand that and I have listened carefully to all that members have said to me.
In relation to amendments 23 and 26, on a chief forester, I start by reassuring Mr Rumbles that I have given careful consideration to his desire to provide for a chief forester role in the bill. However, there are legitimate concerns about the drafting of the provision. I am of the view that having a chief forester heading up Scottish forestry at the heart of Government will be an important protection for the interests of forestry and it is right to consolidate that view and role in legislation.
I will therefore move my amendments 23 and 26 in order to hear what members say, but I may not press them, depending on the views that are expressed. Indeed, I do not believe that we will achieve our ambitions for forestry, which I believe are shared by members across the chamber, without the skills and dedication of FCS and FES staff. Ensuring that they have a very bright future has been at the very core of my considerations.
Since last May, when I announced the Government’s planned administrative arrangements, I have continued to listen and respond positively to concerns. I have met staff around the country, I have taken account of the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee’s stage 1 report and the discussion at stage 2, and I have put on record my agreement with the vast majority of the committee’s recommendations.
Therefore, I published the “Forestry in Scotland” statement last month in response to the helpful recommendation by the REC Committee that we should publish further details of our arrangements. The statement has provided considerable reassurance to a wide range of stakeholders and senior forestry figures. I want, in particular, to pay tribute to the Forestry Commission trade unions for the series of positive and constructive meetings that we have held since November 2016. They, like me, are keen to end the uncertainty for staff and to get on with agreeing the best deal possible for their members on transfer to the Scottish Government.
Having done everything that Parliament has asked us to do to date, I find myself somewhat perplexed to be considering a complex set of amendments that seek to put into law administrative arrangements that have not been fully specified, costed or worked up. I will address each of the amendments in turn.
Amendment 39 was lodged by Claudia Beamish, and I thank her for her continued interest and for the discussions that we have had since stage 2. I want to assure members that, during the consultation process in 2016, I considered fully whether a single body could take forward the functions of Forestry Commission Scotland and Forest Enterprise Scotland, as set out in the bill’s policy memorandum at paragraph 64. I concluded that it would be inappropriate to merge the body that is being regulated, FES, with the body that does the regulating, FCS.
The argument against a single agency is that it would, in all likelihood, put at risk the public corporation status of the successor agency to FES, which allows for valuable financial flexibilities. That risk is addressed fully in the chief financial officer’s analysis, which has been made available to members. In short, the financial consequences could be—I use the word used by Simon Hodge, the chief executive of Forest Enterprise Scotland—disastrous. The likelihood of the loss of public corporation status might result in a vastly depleted budget for forestry, so we would not be able to meet our economic, environmental or other aims.
I know that some have been concerned that the analysis has appeared relatively late in the day. However, the proposal for a single agency was lodged only at stage 3. At stage 1, the REC Committee did not recommend such an approach, or even that the Government should explore any other options. I hope that the analysis that I have circulated to all MSPs has persuaded members not to support amendment 39. I intend to resist amendment 39 for this core reason: the people and businesses that work in forestry now oppose the single-agency proposal.
The Confederation of Forest Industries, which represents forestry and timber businesses all over the country, has been fairly clear throughout the bill process. It originally had concerns, but it supports the Government’s planned arrangements. The Forestry Commission trade unions have also confirmed that they do not support the single-agency proposal. Therefore, I appeal to members to oppose amendment 39 and to support the Government’s planned arrangements. I offer that further reassurance.
I turn to amendments 2, 2A and 40, which are on reporting. Should amendment 39 not be agreed to, even as modified by either amendments 39A or 39B, I want to give Parliament and members as much reassurance about the new arrangements as I can.
I accept the need to bring forward a further report to Parliament that sets out the arrangements. I therefore support amendment 2, as amended by amendment 2A, to prevent delays to the commencement of other work on the provisions in the bill. In line with amendment 40, we would produce a report for Parliament within five years of the new arrangements, which would set out how those functions were working.
I acknowledge that it would not be desirable for the Scottish Government to produce such a report on one of its own divisions. Therefore, that report would be conducted independently by someone with appropriate expertise and, as laid out in amendment 2, there would be consultation and Parliament would be notified before any significant changes were made to the new arrangements. I believe that all that provides appropriate assurance for Parliament about its role in scrutinising the new administrative arrangements, and it provides public documentation on those arrangements. I therefore respectfully ask Ms Beamish not to move amendment 39 and, should she do so, I ask members not to support it.
I turn now to amendments 39A, 39B and 39D, on two agencies. I appreciate that members might not want to support a single agency, and might see two agencies as an appropriate compromise. Amendments 39A and 39D from Stewart Stevenson and 39B from Colin Smyth provide for two agencies to be set out in statute, and I have given much thought to them. If amendment 39A or 39B were passed, it would at least prevent the worst possible option of a single agency going ahead. Therefore, I will support amendment 39A and, if it falls, 39B.
Colin Smyth’s amendment 39B is problematic, as it does not make clear which option would be pursued, but merely presents the options of
“a single agency or two agencies”.
I do not see how the amendment could be fulfilled without some further thought to determine which of the two options should be pursued. That would serve only to add further very unwelcome delay. The letter from the Forestry Commission trade unions makes clear that they want to get on with this. That is really important.
The FCTU want further positive engagement on the new arrangements that we have been discussing with them. Since November 2016, I have met them to discuss the matter in detail on six or seven occasions, each lasting an hour or more. I am sure that Mr Smyth will agree that we should not be doing anything that creates further uncertainty for staff, whom I fervently believe want to get the matter concluded on the basis of the Scottish Government’s proposals as set out in our statement. Therefore, I ask Mr Smyth not to move his amendment 39B and to vote for amendment 39A, which provides more clarity and certainty.
Amendments 39A and 39D from Mr Stevenson offer a welcome tightening up of amendment 39, so that the scope of the functions focuses on the relevant forestry and land management parts of the bill—in other words, the functions currently delivered by FCS and FES. That avoids the current very broad definition, which could, for example, require the Scottish Government lawyers responsible for drafting regulations to be located within the agency. I hope that members will support amendments 39A and 39D.
I turn now to amendment 39, as amended by either 39A or 39B. While it would be helpful to turn amendment 39 into a two-agency proposal, those administrative arrangements would be far from ideal. Like the proposal for a single agency, this one has not been fully debated nor its implications fully considered by Parliament until now. No preparations have been made to establish FCS as a separate Scottish Government agency. It would be likely to involve additional cost, as was specifically explained and mentioned in the policy memorandum at paragraph 65. It could also add delay to getting the new administrative arrangements up and running.
If we have to put resources into creating another agency, we cannot apply those resources to other key aspects of the bill, such as beginning work to prepare the new forestry strategy that all members support. Such delay would be compounded if members also vote through amendment 2 unamended, which would mean that we would have to prepare a fresh report on the two-agency arrangements and present it to Parliament before being able to commence the legislation, thus risking further delay.
I am particularly concerned about Mr Wightman’s amendment 39C. It would require ministers to introduce, within two years, further primary legislation to set out the structure and powers of the agency. That would require two years to prepare and consult on the legislation, and two years to pass it and move to implementation. I contend that that would be devastating to staff, who are anticipating transferring to the Scottish Government in April. I believe that, were amendment 39C to be passed, it would be greeted by amazement, astonishment and consternation by stakeholders, who expect us to complete the job this afternoon. As I have said, it would lead to significant and unacceptable delays—which would be measured in years—in completing the devolution of forestry, which is a policy that the Parliament unanimously accepted at stage 1.
16:45As forestry minister, I have a responsibility for the wellbeing of FCS and FES staff, and I could not in all conscience support such an amendment, which would serve only to add many years of yet further uncertainty for them. It would slow down productivity, which would result in our missing our planting targets, and would potentially risk other vital woodland creation and maintenance work. That would be an outcome that none of us wants. I would not want to do anything that puts that in jeopardy, so I ask Mr Wightman not to press amendment 39C. If he does so, I ask members not to support it.
I assure Mr Wightman that I scrutinised his proposal before I arrived at a view. Indeed, my approach throughout the bill process has been to listen carefully to members’ views if they wished to present them to me and to seek consensus and compromise where I thought that that could be achieved. My metric has been a simple one: what will work best for the future of forestry in Scotland and the staff in our forestry bodies now and in the future?
That leads me to the conclusion that I am profoundly convinced that the administrative arrangements that I have announced—a division and an agency—provide the best solution. Those arrangements are closest to the current ones. The discussions that we have had with the unions to date to take forward those arrangements have been positive and constructive. The FCTU said in its letter to me:
“We absolutely recognise and welcome the very significant commitments made and measures put in place to allay our members’ concerns. We look forward to liaising with your office further in the devolution programme and coming negotiations.”
That could not be clearer. The FCTU anticipates moving forward to negotiate for staff interests in the planned arrangements. In the same letter, it rejects a sole agency arrangement, and I welcome that. The planned arrangements have been designed to have the optimum beneficial impact for staff in forestry in Scotland.
Presiding Officer,
“The setting up of the Scottish Government Agency, Forest and Land Scotland, including the retention of FES’s Public Corporation status ... is to be welcomed. The identification of a dedicated forestry division, Scottish Forestry, within the Scottish Government headed by a Chief Forester is an important recognition of the ... need for such grounded expertise within government itself, especially with the duties placed on Ministers in relation to forestry.”
Those are not my words; they are the words of Sir Harry Studholme, who is the current chair of the Forestry Commission in the United Kingdom and a hugely respected figure in the forestry sector.
I understand that members want to do the right thing for forestry in Scotland and for staff, and that their aim, like mine, is to ensure that we put in place the right arrangements to take forestry into the future. However, a single agency is not the right way forward. Although a two-agency approach might work—at this stage, we cannot say—it has not been at all sufficiently scrutinised or tested.
I ask members to listen to what the unions that represent their staff say, to organisations as diverse as Confor, the United Kingdom Forest Products Association and Community Land Scotland, and, of course, to Sir Harry Studholme.
Should all the amendments be pressed, I ask members to vote for amendment 39A and, if it falls, for amendment 39B. I ask members to vote for amendment 39D and to oppose amendment 39C, and to vote against amendment 39, whether it is amended or not. I would then join members in voting for amendment 2, as amended by amendment 2A, to give further reassurance that Parliament will receive a report on the administrative arrangements. I also ask members to support amendment 40, to provide additional safeguards for Parliament’s role in being notified of the arrangements and any future changes.
I will listen carefully to what the movers of amendments 2, 2A and 40 say about how they relate to amendment 39, either amended or not, before I sum up.
I move amendment 23.