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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 28 February 2018

28 Feb 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Early Years and Childcare

If Stuart McMillan had taken the time to read what our manifesto says about our approach, he would have found that we would not have gone about things in the same way. We would have taken a staged approach, starting with the most vulnerable one and two-year-olds and working forwards. In many ways, what matters is the planning; it is not just about having a good intention. We do not disagree with the intention—the question is whether we can deliver it. I say “we” because, ultimately, the issue is one that concerns all of us, all the local authorities and all our children.

One of the authorities that will struggle is Midlothian Council, which is the fastest growing authority in Scotland. It will be particularly hard hit as it struggles to find the revenue funding and capital funding that are needed to implement the policy. That will only be compounded by pressures on partner providers, such as after-school clubs, which are already struggling and whose rents are being raised as budget cuts are made.

In addition to those financial pressures, the Scottish Government has estimated that an additional 8,000 whole-time equivalent staff will be required to implement the expansion, yet council estimates show that 12,000 more staff are needed, including staff in training and central staff. I am aware that the Scottish Government has launched a recruitment drive, but we are still talking about a daunting figure and a significant difference in numbers.

Last Thursday, the First Minister told the chamber that the Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council is offering about 1,500 additional places and that there are 836 additional graduate-level places. I am not decrying the efforts that are being made, but will we really have enough staff to enable us to complete the proposed ambitious expansion of childcare in Scotland?

Research by Skills Development Scotland has cast doubt on that. It shows that although partner providers are optimistic about retaining existing staff, 63 per cent of them are already finding it difficult or fairly difficult to recruit suitable new employees. Indeed, partner providers might well struggle with the introduction of the 1,140 hours of provision, because 41 per cent of them are not confident about their ability to accommodate the expansion. That might be partly due to a loss of staff, because there is a drain from the partner providers to council providers, which can offer more generous pay and conditions. I noted that on a recent visit to a nursery that is an exemplar when it comes to how the 1,140 hours can be delivered. It had a purpose-built building and all the staff that it needed, but it was heavily oversubscribed.

We have to give some real thought to how our partner providers will cope. I have visited several private nurseries across the country and spoken to many of their managers and owners, who have confirmed that they are losing their staff. If partner providers continue to lose their most qualified staff, that will impact on the future quality of the childcare that is available to parents, as well as push up the fees, as nurseries seek to retain their staff. In turn, that could limit parents’ choice in finding a local high-quality nursery, and it could lead to private nurseries closing down.

I would be very interested to hear what the Government’s position is when it comes to the money. The partner provider offer, which usually sits between £3.45 and £3.75 an hour, will not cover the costs that need to be met if private nurseries are to be able to deliver the provision that is intended.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-10650, in the name of Michelle Ballantyne, on early years and childcare. 14:47
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased to have the opportunity to bring the motion to the chamber. Early learning and childcare is one of the most important areas for any Government, ...
Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) SNP
If Michelle Ballantyne is seriously concerned about funding, will she say how her party would have funded the policy, given that there is going to be another...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
If Stuart McMillan had taken the time to read what our manifesto says about our approach, he would have found that we would not have gone about things in the...
The Minister for Childcare and Early Years (Maree Todd) SNP
I can absolutely understand why the member is concerned, because in England, where the Tories are in charge, the NDNA has said about the expansion process: ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
That is a good point, but it was a long intervention, so I will give you the time back, Ms Ballantyne.
Michelle Ballantyne Con
I have two points to make in response to that. If the minister, having read about the issue, feels that there are real issues south of the border, that shoul...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Maree Todd to speak to and move amendment S5M-10650.3. 15:02
The Minister for Childcare and Early Years (Maree Todd) SNP
The expansion of funded early learning and childcare will transform our children’s life chances. By 2020, we will provide all three and four-year-olds and el...
Michelle Ballantyne Con
Can the minister tell me how, and on the basis of what evidence, the Government is on track to deliver?
Maree Todd SNP
Audit Scotland has looked at the process at a point when there is still some distance between our figures and local authority figures. It is right and proper...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
No members deny that there are a lot of good things in the report, particularly on the Scottish Government’s strategic objectives. However, the Scottish Gove...
Maree Todd SNP
There is a huge body of evidence from around the world on how delivering such provision closes the attainment gap. Is Liz Smith suggesting that we wait longe...
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
The feedback that I have been getting from parents is that childcare provision is inflexible. Does the minister agree that that inflexibility is preventing w...
Maree Todd SNP
The issue is that the number of hours is limited to 600, which is precisely why we are expanding the number to 1,140 hours. We are committed to fully fundin...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
The minister made a point about the eligibility of two-year-olds. A quarter of two-year-olds are eligible for free childcare but, according to the Audit Scot...
Maree Todd SNP
There are a number of challenges involved in identifying the eligible two-year-olds and targeting the offering to their families. We are working with local a...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Maree Todd SNP
I am afraid that I am in my final minute. We estimate that the combined effect of that investment will have supported more than 2,000 additional practitione...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am currently giving speakers time back if they take interventions, but I warn members that there are only a few minutes left to spare. I am sorry to say th...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I expect to get the time back from your intervention—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Now, now. Never challenge or have a go at the chair.
Iain Gray Lab
There is a certain irony in our having this debate on a day when the childcare arrangements of families across most of Scotland have collapsed under the weig...
John Swinney SNP
I am interested in what Mr Gray thinks the Government should have done in identifying the purpose of the measure as being either to improve outcomes for chil...
Iain Gray Lab
My judgment is that both are important, as I think that Mr Swinney agrees, but primarily this is about improved educational outcomes for children and address...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You must conclude.
Iain Gray Lab
The Government should listen—
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
No. Please conclude, Mr Gray—I am moving on.
Iain Gray Lab
The Government should listen and take urgent action.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You were given an extra minute and the clock did not start, in fact, until you stood up to speak, so I was quite generous. Oliver Mundell is next, to be foll...