Committee
Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee 21 November 2017
21 Nov 2017 · S5 · Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee
Item of business
Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Agenda item 8 is consideration of the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I again welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform. I also welcome her officials from the Scottish Government, who are Andrew Voas, veterinary head of animal welfare and bill team leader; Beverley Williams, bill team manager with the animal welfare team; Angela Lawson, solicitor with the legal directorate; and David McLeish, parliamentary counsel. Members should note that officials are not allowed to speak on the record in these proceedings. As this is the committee’s first stage 2 bill consideration in the current session of Parliament, members might welcome my laying out the process on the record, with apologies to those who have been through this before. Everyone should have with them a copy of the bill as introduced; the marshalled list of amendments, which sets out the amendments in the order in which they will be disposed of; and the groupings. There will be one debate for each of the four groups of amendments. I will call the member who lodged the first amendment in the group to speak to and move that amendment and to speak to all the other amendments in the group. I will then call any other members who have lodged amendments in that group to speak to their amendments and to any other amendments in the group but I will not, at that time, ask them to move their amendments. Members who have not lodged amendments in the group should indicate to me or the clerk if they wish to speak. If the cabinet secretary has not already spoken on the group, I will invite her to contribute to the debate before we move to the winding-up speech. At times, I may allow a little more flexibility for members to come back on points of clarity that have arisen in the debate. I will conclude the debate on each group by inviting the member who moved the first amendment in the group to wind up. Following the debate on the group, I will check whether the member who moved the first amendment in the group wishes to press it to a vote or to withdraw it. If the member wishes to press it, I will put the question on the amendment. If the member wishes to withdraw it, I will check whether any other member objects. If any member objects, the amendment is not withdrawn and the committee must immediately move to vote on it. If any member does not wish to move their amendment when it is called, they should say, “Not moved”, and they should do so audibly. Any other member present may move such an amendment. However, if no one moves the amendment, I will immediately call the next amendment on the marshalled list. Only committee members are allowed to vote. Voting on any division is by a show of hands. It is important that members keep their hands clearly raised until the clerks have recorded the vote. The committee is also required to indicate formally that it has considered and agreed to each section of the bill, and I will therefore put a question on each section at the appropriate point. I hope that that is all clear to everybody.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Agenda item 8 is consideration of the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I again welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Environment, ...
Richard Lyle (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
SNP
Convener, before we move on, can I refer members to my entry in the register of interests? I am the convener of the cross-party group on the Scottish Showmen...
The Convener
SNP
It was remiss of me not to give you that opportunity. Does any other member have interests to declare?
John Scott
Con
I should declare an interest as an honorary member of the British Veterinary Association.
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Green
I should also declare an interest as an honorary member of the BVA. Section 1—Wild animals in travelling circuses: offence
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 4, in the name of David Stewart, is in a group on its own.
David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
The bill’s long title states that it is “An Act of the Scottish Parliament to make it an offence to use wild animals in travelling circuses”, and the expla...
John Scott
Con
I support what Mr Stewart has said. It is a reasonable amendment, which we should consider.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
I thank David Stewart for lodging his amendment, the effect of which would be to make it clearer that a circus operator who uses a wild animal in a travellin...
David Stewart
Lab
I appreciate the support of members and the cabinet secretary. Amendment 4 agreed to.
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 5, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 6 and 7.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
I will outline the thinking behind amendments 5 to 7. The committee’s stage 1 report raised concerns regarding the effectiveness of section 1 in introducing ...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
Can the cabinet secretary confirm that, in changing the wording from “a travelling circus” to “the travelling circus”—from a generality to specificity—that d...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
That is not our view. The amendments were drafted to try to ensure that we do not capture the wrong things or exclude other things. The new drafting tightens...
The Convener
SNP
As no other member wishes to contribute, does the cabinet secretary wish to wind up?
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
There is not anything extra that I need to add. I simply reiterate that the amendments are to tighten up the bill so that the nature of the offence becomes e...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 1, in the name of John Scott, is grouped with amendments 14 to 16, 2, 17, 18, 3, 20 and 12. 11:15
John Scott
Con
Amendments 1 and 2 seek to create a list of wild animals that are not to be used in travelling circuses. Amendment 1 details where lists of such wild animals...
Mark Ruskell
Green
We have a definition of domestication in the bill. However, at the end of stage 1, we came to the conclusion that there were problems with it: that it was in...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
I will come to amendment 12 after I have spoken to the other amendments in the group. That would make more logical sense. This debate is about the committee...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
I have come to this matter quite late, but I have had an intensive weekend of study on it. The cabinet secretary has slightly pre-empted me in that I have id...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
And, indeed, there are wallabies.
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
The cabinet secretary says wallabies—my experience is comprehensive, but not total. I have not yet met any wallabies. One could even consider rabbits, which...
Richard Lyle
SNP
I agree with the comments that Stewart Stevenson just made, and also with what the cabinet secretary said. I can see where Mark Ruskell and John Scott are co...
Claudia Beamish
Lab
I find this issue quite complicated, if I am open about it. Lists often have their dangers and, although I was keen to support the possibility of a list of w...
Mark Ruskell
Green
I listened carefully to what the cabinet secretary said. I would like clarification over amendment 12, because it enables ministers to make a regulation abou...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
I think that there is a slight misunderstanding here. Most of us will agree on pretty much all the animals that are domesticated and all those that are wild;...
Stewart Stevenson
SNP
It strikes me that paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of the proposed new section in amendment 12 makes it very clear that the generality of the phrase “commonl...
The Convener
SNP
It is worth nothing that the amendments lodged by John Scott and Mark Ruskell are constructive and well intentioned in what they set out to achieve but, as w...
John Scott
Con
I thank the cabinet secretary for her explanation of the apparent weaknesses of my three amendments, which I think has convinced me of the dangers of seeking...