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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 05 October 2017

05 Oct 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Yesterday was world animal welfare day. As we have heard this afternoon, we should all work together to sharpen the bill and to develop further protections for the future.

OneKind reminds us that bans have already been introduced in at least 34 countries around the world, including 19 European Union member states. It says that banning the use of wild animals in travelling circuses in Scotland is a forward-looking and progressive act that will lead the way for the rest of the United Kingdom, and it urges members to support the bill at stage 1.

Although the ECCLR Committee and Scottish Labour support the bill’s principles, as members have said, its present form has necessitated a significant amount of committee work and consideration, leading to our stage 1 report recommendations to the Scottish Government to make it fit for purpose. It is disappointing that the cabinet secretary’s response to our report was only available this morning, meaning that there has been little time to consider it.

I intend to focus on three issues: static circuses, definitions—about which I will make a brief comment—and enforcement.

When they gave evidence, the cabinet secretary and a Scottish Government official noted that the travelling aspect of the use of wild animals in travelling circuses was not a primary concern. It therefore seems illogical not to re-examine the use of wild animals in static circuses, too. I acknowledge that a stage 2 amendment would be inappropriate as that issue has not been consulted on in relation to the bill, but I ask the Scottish Government to seriously consider the issue as soon as possible.

In relation to the definition of “wild animal”, it is positive that in her response to our report, the cabinet secretary stated:

“I would be willing to explore a possible amendment giving a regulation-making power to exclude or include specific animals as ‘wild animals’ that might be used in cases of real doubt in future. Regulations could be used when necessary following the coming into force of the Bill to remove doubt in particular cases where there is uncertainty as to which category a particular kind of animal falls into. That could be either to include or exclude an animal as ‘wild’.”

Like a number of members, I still think that a list in regulations, at least, that could be added to and amended is the best way forward. I am also of the opinion that the removal of references to domesticated animals in the bill would bring clarity as we go forward.

As Angus MacDonald mentioned, the committee considers that the enforcement powers in the bill could go further and supports evidence that was received from local authorities calling for additional powers to intervene to prevent shows from taking place. David Kerr of Argyll and Bute Council said:

“as things stand, our only recourse currently would be to take the person to court. I do not know whether any of you have been involved in court cases recently”—

I hope that none of us has—

“but”

taking

“a case to court is not a quick process”.—[Official Report, Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, 6 June 2017; c 22.]

The committee recommendation is that the Scottish Government adopts that suggestion from local authorities and gives them powers to serve notices, to issue fixed-penalty notices and to obtain records.

I understand the argument in the cabinet secretary’s response that

“the only question is whether or not the circus operator has caused or permitted a wild animal to be used in the travelling circus. All other activities ... are outwith the ambit of the Bill”.

However, I ask her to look very carefully at whether a stop notice would be as disproportionate as she said that it would be, or whether it would be possible to find a way forward on that issue to provide clarity.

I thank the clerks, and I reflect again on how well the committee appears to have worked together on this complex issue; it was perhaps more complex than it would have been if there had been more clarity in the bill at an early stage.

We support the principles of the bill and we will continue to support them and many other welfare and ethical issues involving animals in the future.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-08062, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on stage 1 of the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotlan...
The Cabinet Secretary for Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform (Roseanna Cunningham) SNP
I first thank the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee for its consideration of the bill. The committee took a great deal of evidence from a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, cabinet secretary. I call Graeme Dey, convener of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, to speak on behalf of the committee. ...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak in the debate on behalf of the committee. I thank the members of the committee for their efforts in producing the unanimous report on...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Yes. We have a little time in hand.
Graeme Dey SNP
On the day on which the bill was introduced, the cabinet secretary wrote to the committee to highlight the intention to review the operation of the Performin...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
Will the member give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, cabinet secretary—the member must wind up now. Interruption. That is a fearsome look you are giving me, cabinet secretary, but I think that we re...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
I would just like to ask my colleague whether he would seriously have preferred to have delayed all this for a number of years, because that would be the con...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Briefly, convener.
Graeme Dey SNP
As the cabinet secretary knows, I am reflecting the views of the whole committee, not just my own. I take her point on board, but that view was reached unani...
Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I commend the committee’s report and the convener’s comments, which we have just heard. The Scottish Conservatives will support the Government’s motion, and ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you very much, Mr Cameron. I hope that we have run out of animal references, but we probably have not. I call David Stewart to open on behalf of Labour...
David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I rise to speak in support of the general principles of the bill. However, a number of recommendations that have been proposed ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We come to the open debate, and I ask for speeches of four minutes. One member who is due to speak has forgotten to press their request-to-speak button—I wil...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am a member of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, which is responsible for scrutinising the bill, and I thank the members, the cler...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am afraid that you must conclude now.
Emma Harper SNP
I will conclude, Presiding Officer. Nineteen countries have already banned it, so it is time for Scotland to lead the way for the rest of the UK.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Sometimes I do not win. Laughter. 15:37
Peter Chapman (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The debate is about wild animals, so for once I do not need to declare an interest. Laughter. To be honest, when I am in a pen with a newly calved coo, I som...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
As an elected parliamentarian and councillor, I have been pleased to make links over the years with the Scottish Showmen’s Guild. On a number of occasions, I...
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Presiding Officer, as your deputy on the cross-party group on animal welfare, it is a privilege to speak in a debate that I hope will take Scotland a step fo...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
As a member of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, I join the convener in thanking all the stakeholders who gave evidence and the cler...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I thank Graeme Dey and his colleagues on the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee for the work that they have done. I recognise the overwhe...
Angus MacDonald (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the ECCLR Committee, I am pleased to contribute to the debate, not least because it is a further step towards Scotland leading the way for the...
John Scott (Ayr) (Con) Con
I declare an interest as an honorary member of the British Veterinary Association. The Scottish Conservative Party and I welcome the bill’s general principl...
Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
It is great to have this debate in the chamber after lengthy discussions in committee. We spent a number of hours taking evidence on and discussing the bill—...
Claudia Beamish (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Yesterday was world animal welfare day. As we have heard this afternoon, we should all work together to sharpen the bill and to develop further protections f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Finlay Carson. You can have a generous six minutes, Mr Carson—but not too generous. 16:13
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
Today’s debate has been constructive with many valid and important points made about the bill. The committee convener addressed concerns over definitions, wh...