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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 02 November 2017

02 Nov 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Inclusive Education

Presiding Officer, you will find this hard to believe, but I started school in 1972—and yes, the years have been kind. I am very fortunate that where we lived, here in Edinburgh, became the centre for many people from Scotland and the north of England who had upper and lower limb deficiencies. The Princess Margaret Rose orthopaedic hospital set up a special centre so, over the holiday period, many of us got together to get the extra help that was required. Looking back, I think that I was the only child of that age there who went to a mainstream school. Everyone else went to a special needs school. I was very fortunate that my parents chose to mainstream me and I was fortunate to go to an independent school here in Edinburgh.

I think that we have to set this debate in that historical context and recognise how far we have come—as a civic society, as politicians, and as educationists. There are many lessons that we need to learn and many of them have been highlighted by others today, but we have come a long way. We need to be encouraged by that. We are on a journey—the journey has taken us this far and we need to go further.

In the time that I have this afternoon, I would like to make two points about this. I think that the Deputy First Minister picked up this point in his speech and I was grateful that he did. When we talk about mainstreaming and education, we are not simply talking about what happens in lessons in the classroom.

Too often, we concentrate on whether we have the right provision when a child is in English or maths or whatever. That is vitally important and we should not play that down but if we see it as inclusion when somebody is isolated for the rest of their school experience, we are missing the point. What happens in the playground is probably as important, if not more important, as what happens in a primary school lesson. What happens and how a child is treated in the dining room is as important as what happens in the classroom. How we treat children in relation to physical education and other activities is also really important. We have lots of teachers who are able to think outside the box when it comes to such activities.

Speaking from my own experience, I was unable to participate in football, rugby or cricket as a player, but the school realised that I would be able to umpire, touch judge, or score the cricket matches. I was included in a way that I was able to benefit from and to build friendships on. Sometimes I think that we need to give headteachers and teachers the room to be able to think outside what they normally do so that a child always feels included. I fully agree with the comments made by Jackie Baillie and Tavish Scott regarding the support that we need to give our teachers and support teachers in that regard.

My other point is about the postcode lottery—or, to put it another way, the parentcode lottery. Although we can see that the presumption is for mainstreaming, we also know—and I think that the Scottish Government agrees—that the best interests of some children will be served not in a mainstream setting but in a school that meets their needs in certain ways.

What has surprised me, both from when I was a councillor on the City of Edinburgh Council and from my postbag as a regional MSP, is that, if those who want to choose for their children not to be mainstreamed but to go to a different type of school shout loudest—and, let us be honest, if they are middle class—they are far more likely to get a place in that school than others from the rest of our society. There is a challenge for local authorities and for us as politicians here to ensure that those who come from vulnerable backgrounds, whether that is economic, educational or family related, have the same opportunities as those like me who come from a privileged, middle-class background.

We have to be careful to treat every child as an individual. We have a presumption of mainstreaming, which I support fully and from which I benefited, but there will be times when it is not right for a child to be mainstreamed. As my colleague Liz Smith said, we must protect those schools that are providing those excellent services, both financially and in the way in which we speak about them, in the right way.

I, too, thank Enable for its report and the work that it is doing in this area. This has been a positive debate, and there is agreement. I would encourage us all: we are on a journey, we are perhaps halfway there, and we need to keep going in a cross-party spirit.

15:47  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-08558, in the name of John Swinney, on the presumption of mainstreaming.
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
A commitment to and belief in inclusive education have underpinned the approach to education policy and legislation in the Scottish Parliament since 2000. Th...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I very much welcome the opportunity to debate this issue, and I warmly welcome the Scottish Government initiatives that have been announced this afternoon. W...
John Swinney SNP
Just for completeness, on Liz Smith’s analysis of the statistics, does she accept that, within the much expanded number of young people identified with speci...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I absolutely accept that, and I hope that we can make progress exactly on the accuracy of the data and its relevant application. When the Education and ...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
The cabinet secretary is absolutely right to place today’s consultation in the context of the development of the policy and legislative framework on disabili...
The Minister for Childcare and Early Years (Mark McDonald) SNP
I hear the point that Mr Gray is making, but he will have heard the Deputy First Minister highlight the significant improvement that there has been in outcom...
Iain Gray Lab
That is very much to the credit of our teachers and additional support needs workers who remain in the system. However, we cannot ignore the fact that, as En...
Jenny Gilruth (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) SNP
I remind members that I am the parliamentary liaison officer for the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills. As we have heard, the presumption of mainst...
Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) LD
I apologise to you, Presiding Officer, and to members in the chamber, because I must leave early tonight to catch the evening plane home. Tomorrow, one of t...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
I have a very strong constituency interest in this area, because I am working with a number of families with children of primary school age who are on the au...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Linda Fabiani) SNP
On that final, final, final point, I call Oliver Mundell. 15:22
Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Con
On this occasion, I would have been quite happy to give Bob Doris my six minutes because he is making the same points that I hear about in my constituency ma...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I warmly welcome the opportunity to discuss mainstreaming in education in the chamber this afternoon. It was of course a Labour Scottish Government that intr...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I am glad to be part of this debate for a number of reasons that will become clear as my speech progresses. I was pleased to hear from the Deputy First Mini...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, you will find this hard to believe, but I started school in 1972—and yes, the years have been kind. I am very fortunate that where we live...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
In March, I led a members’ business debate on the subject of the presumption of mainstreaming, as addressed in the excellent Enable Scotland report “#IncludE...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Delivering an inclusive educational environmental for all speaks directly to the kind of society that we aspire to be. As other members, including Jenny Gilr...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate, as the presumption of mainstreaming has been a topic that has come up a fair number of times with my cons...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
Thank you very much, Mr Mason. I call Monica Lennon, to be followed by Ruth Maguire. You can have an extra 30 or 40 seconds. Isn’t that exciting? 16:06
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
You have made my day, Presiding Officer. As many MSPs from across Parliament have, I have been raising concerns with the Scottish Government about the decli...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Ruth Maguire also has a little extra time. 16:13
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
The commitment of Parliament to delivering inclusive education is not in doubt. However, as MSPs—and as parents, friends and family members—we are all aware ...
Annie Wells (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Deciding the best route for any child through education will always be tough. For every change in educational thought there will always be a question mark ov...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) SNP
I support the motion and congratulate the Parliament and all Administrations on the presumption of mainstreaming. All children and young people are entitled...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
There was much in the cabinet secretary’s opening remarks with which we can all agree. He was absolutely right to emphasise the continuity of this Parliament...
John Swinney SNP
That is a big breakthrough. Laughter.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I know. I thought that the cabinet secretary would think so. Labour agrees with and supports much of what is before us today, and we will vote accordingly. ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Michelle Ballantyne to close for the Conservatives. You have a generous nine minutes. 16:39
Michelle Ballantyne (South Scotland) (Con) Con
I refer members to my entry in the register of interests, as I am the former head of service of Stable Life, a charity that works with children and young peo...