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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 05 October 2017

05 Oct 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Ruskell, Mark Green Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

As a member of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, I join the convener in thanking all the stakeholders who gave evidence and the clerks, who did a great job in herding the evidence into another excellent report for the committee.

This should be a victorious moment, because banning wild animals in travelling circuses is absolutely the right thing to do on both ethical and animal welfare grounds. Emma Harper really nailed the ethical argument in her speech. Green MSPs will back the bill at stage 1.

I moved an amendment to the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Bill more than a decade ago that would have introduced a ban but, at the time, it was supported only—curiously—by SNP members. A ban is long needed and long overdue.

However, what should be a moment of celebration about the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Bill feels more like a headache because of some of the poor drafting. Many of us on the committee who started with very different positions on the bill have ended up sharing some of the same grounds for concern.

Let us take two of the most fundamental definitions. What is a “circus”? What is a “wild animal”? In evidence to the committee, the Scottish Government officials said that if it looks like a circus, walks like a circus and talks like a circus, then it is a circus. They also said that we should not expect people to “overthink” the definition of a circus—except, of course, that there are people who are paid exactly to do that, called lawyers.

We heard from a witness with a performance act with lions and tigers. He certainly talked like a circus when he gave evidence to the committee, but no one can tell him whether he would be a circus under the bill because he does not have a tent or clowns. Simply leaving it for the courts to decide is not good enough.

On the definition of “wild animal”, again, there needs to be much more clarity. The word “domesticated” is unhelpful and could be used by circus operators to argue that animals that have evolved over millions of years in the world are actually domesticated because they have lived in captive training environments for several generations. Certainly the taxonomy required to add a list of wild animals to the bill would not be too hard—a list would not have to name every individual wild animal on planet earth.

Given that more than a decade has passed since the wild animals in circuses issue was raised, I am perplexed about why the Scottish Government has not followed the Welsh Government route of updating legislation for all animal performances—of which travelling circuses are just one type—at the same time. That would have addressed the problem that the bill has in targeting the plight of wild animals in travelling circuses while simply ignoring those in static circuses.

We heard contradictory evidence from the cabinet secretary about the importance of the travelling environment being an ethical concern rather than an animal welfare issue, which had us, quite frankly, chasing our tails. Surely it would have been better to bring in a proper framework that places animal performances into categories that see them banned, regulated further or left alone.

The ethical basis for the bill was based on circuses being the top public concern, but no consultation or polling was conducted to understand the public’s view on greyhound racing, for example; yet those and many other types of animal performances raise ethical and welfare questions of varying degrees that need to be addressed.

The Government has much to do to make the bill look like a ban, walk like a ban and talk like a ban. I look forward to amendments being introduced at stage 2.

15:53  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-08062, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on stage 1 of the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotlan...
The Cabinet Secretary for Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform (Roseanna Cunningham) SNP
I first thank the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee for its consideration of the bill. The committee took a great deal of evidence from a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you, cabinet secretary. I call Graeme Dey, convener of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, to speak on behalf of the committee. ...
Graeme Dey (Angus South) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak in the debate on behalf of the committee. I thank the members of the committee for their efforts in producing the unanimous report on...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Yes. We have a little time in hand.
Graeme Dey SNP
On the day on which the bill was introduced, the cabinet secretary wrote to the committee to highlight the intention to review the operation of the Performin...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
Will the member give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, cabinet secretary—the member must wind up now. Interruption. That is a fearsome look you are giving me, cabinet secretary, but I think that we re...
Roseanna Cunningham SNP
I would just like to ask my colleague whether he would seriously have preferred to have delayed all this for a number of years, because that would be the con...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Briefly, convener.
Graeme Dey SNP
As the cabinet secretary knows, I am reflecting the views of the whole committee, not just my own. I take her point on board, but that view was reached unani...
Donald Cameron (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I commend the committee’s report and the convener’s comments, which we have just heard. The Scottish Conservatives will support the Government’s motion, and ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you very much, Mr Cameron. I hope that we have run out of animal references, but we probably have not. I call David Stewart to open on behalf of Labour...
David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I rise to speak in support of the general principles of the bill. However, a number of recommendations that have been proposed ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We come to the open debate, and I ask for speeches of four minutes. One member who is due to speak has forgotten to press their request-to-speak button—I wil...
Emma Harper (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am a member of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, which is responsible for scrutinising the bill, and I thank the members, the cler...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am afraid that you must conclude now.
Emma Harper SNP
I will conclude, Presiding Officer. Nineteen countries have already banned it, so it is time for Scotland to lead the way for the rest of the UK.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Sometimes I do not win. Laughter. 15:37
Peter Chapman (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The debate is about wild animals, so for once I do not need to declare an interest. Laughter. To be honest, when I am in a pen with a newly calved coo, I som...
Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) SNP
As an elected parliamentarian and councillor, I have been pleased to make links over the years with the Scottish Showmen’s Guild. On a number of occasions, I...
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Presiding Officer, as your deputy on the cross-party group on animal welfare, it is a privilege to speak in a debate that I hope will take Scotland a step fo...
Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Green
As a member of the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee, I join the convener in thanking all the stakeholders who gave evidence and the cler...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
I thank Graeme Dey and his colleagues on the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee for the work that they have done. I recognise the overwhe...
Angus MacDonald (Falkirk East) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the ECCLR Committee, I am pleased to contribute to the debate, not least because it is a further step towards Scotland leading the way for the...
John Scott (Ayr) (Con) Con
I declare an interest as an honorary member of the British Veterinary Association. The Scottish Conservative Party and I welcome the bill’s general principl...
Kate Forbes (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) SNP
It is great to have this debate in the chamber after lengthy discussions in committee. We spent a number of hours taking evidence on and discussing the bill—...
Claudia Beamish (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Yesterday was world animal welfare day. As we have heard this afternoon, we should all work together to sharpen the bill and to develop further protections f...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Finlay Carson. You can have a generous six minutes, Mr Carson—but not too generous. 16:13
Finlay Carson (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Con
Today’s debate has been constructive with many valid and important points made about the bill. The committee convener addressed concerns over definitions, wh...