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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 03 October 2017

03 Oct 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Universal Credit (Roll-out)

Presiding Officer,

“Universal Credit ... remains the right thing to do. The current system is fragmented and traps people in poverty. The prospect of an integrated benefit system that responds to people’s changing circumstances is a prize worth having.”

Universal credit is

“an important tool for tackling poverty”.

Those are not my words; they are the words of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation in April this year.

Universal credit rolls six benefits into one, is expressly designed so that work always pays and is a much more flexible system that can be readily tailored to the individual’s particular and often changing needs. In all those ways—and more—it is a reform to be welcomed.

In comparison with the old system that it replaces, universal credit works. More people on universal credit are in work than was the case under jobseekers allowance and, on average, they stay in work longer and earn more. Unlike universal credit, the old system punished work—it failed to get young people into work and it subsidised low wages by letting the tax credit bill get completely out of control. For all those reasons, and contrary to what the minister has just said, there should be no going back to any of that.

None of that is to say that universal credit is without its problems, and I will address those directly. It has been said—we have just heard the minister say this—that the delivery of universal credit is pushing people into poverty, driving up household debt and forcing people to rely more heavily on food banks. Those are deeply serious concerns, and they are the very opposite of what universal credit was designed to deliver.

Universal credit is designed to be a flexible and bespoke social security system fit for purpose in the 21st-century labour market, to make it easier for people to escape a lifetime of welfare dependency and to move to the dignity, fairness and respect that a good job brings. If the evidence on the ground is that that is not happening, that evidence needs to be taken very seriously indeed.

On the detail of the delivery of universal credit, it is said that three aspects in particular are causing problems. First, that payments are made monthly not fortnightly; secondly, that the housing element of universal credit is paid directly to households and not to landlords; and thirdly, that new claimants have to wait six weeks—and sometimes, it is reported, longer than that—before they receive their initial payment.

I will address each of those aspects in turn. The first two—monthly payments and payments to landlords—are among the matters that, thanks to the Smith commission agreement, we in this Parliament can change. As we heard from the minister, those changes have been made and will come into force tomorrow. Incidentally, those changes were made with the support of the Conservative members of the Social Security Committee.

That leaves only the third reported problem: delays in the initial payment. The Social Security Committee on which I sit and the House of Commons Work and Pensions Committee have written to the DWP about that. Let us look carefully at what the DWP has said.

On 1 February, Neil Couling, the DWP director general of the universal credit programme, wrote to the Social Security Committee. He said:

“Regarding rent arrears, many people arrive on Universal Credit with existing arrears and as I explained to the Committee, it is difficult to isolate the affect Universal Credit may be having.”

Mr Couling told the committee that the DWP was undertaking further work on the matter and, in March, the DWP told the House of Commons Work and Pensions Committee that some 76 per cent of universal credit claimants had rent arrears before they went on to universal credit. Yes, there is a rent arrears problem, but it is not clear from the evidence—the minister has talked about the evidence—that universal credit is causing the problem, given that 76 per cent of new claimants are in arrears before they go on to universal credit.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-08035, in the name of Jeane Freeman, on the roll-out of universal credit. I call Jeane Freeman to speak t...
The Minister for Social Security (Jeane Freeman) SNP
I have brought the motion to the chamber today to allow the Scottish Parliament to make clear its position on universal credit and to give Parliament the opp...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) Con
Does the minister welcome the statement made at the Conservative Party conference yesterday that the wait will be a maximum of five days? Will she welcome th...
Jeane Freeman SNP
Actually, what was mentioned at the Conservative Party conference—believe me, I will get to it—was what we already have. The only new thing that was said was...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
In the words of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the current system, which universal credit is replacing, is “fragmented and traps people in poverty.” If un...
Jeane Freeman SNP
The Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which I know Mr Tomkins is very fond of quoting, called on the Conservatives to reverse the two-child limit. Originally, the ...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, “Universal Credit ... remains the right thing to do. The current system is fragmented and traps people in poverty. The prospect of an int...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
In East Lothian, prior to the roll-out of universal credit, rent arrears had fallen by 20 per cent; on its introduction, rent arrears increased by 20 per cen...
Adam Tomkins Con
The DWP addressed the detail of that point in its responses to the Social Security Community. There was a particular problem in East Lothian, which was one o...
Maree Todd (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Adam Tomkins Con
No. On 14 March, the responsible minister, Damian Hinds MP, wrote to the Social Security Committee. He said: “I accept there are cases where claimants wait...
Jeane Freeman SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Adam Tomkins Con
I will if I have time.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
There is time for interventions for everyone in this debate.
Jeane Freeman SNP
Does Mr Tomkins accept that the DWP’s information that was released this year shows that one in four new UC claimants waits longer than six weeks, half of cl...
Adam Tomkins Con
That was more a speech than an intervention. The answer is straightforward. There is an interest-free loan, which needs to be paid back over a six-month per...
Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
When the Parliament last debated universal credit, a few weeks ago, I said that I would welcome a Government debate on the issue, so I am glad to be speaking...
Maurice Golden (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Does the member agree that the best way out of poverty is to work and that people who claim universal credit are 13 per cent more likely to be in work than p...
Alex Rowley Lab
Skills opportunities and employment are, for me, the best way out of poverty—I do not disagree with that. However, we need to provide support. It is clear th...
Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) Green
This is the second time in less than a month that the Parliament has debated the roll-out of universal credit. That is a clear reflection of the extraordinar...
Adam Tomkins Con
I am very grateful to the member for taking an intervention. One of the recent changes to universal credit has been the change in the taper rate from 65 per ...
Alison Johnstone Green
Yes, I agree, but that amounted to £0.7 billion, compared with an initial £3 billion cut. Research by the OBR shows that, by 2020, universal credit will tak...
Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) LD
I welcome the Scottish Government’s motion and the opportunity that it affords the chamber to call a halt to the botched accelerated roll-out of universal cr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
We move to the open debate. 16:08
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
It is important to remind members, particularly the Tories, that today we are discussing human beings and their situation; we are discussing not statistics, ...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) Con
I welcome the amendment in my colleague Adam Tomkins’s name and I fully support it. I suspect that there will not be a lot of consensus from other parties ab...
Jeane Freeman SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Jeremy Balfour Con
Not at the moment. I will make some progress first, if that is okay. We have heard much about the great old system that we all loved so much—six forms, six ...
Sandra White SNP
Will the member give way?