Committee
Audit Committee, 21 Nov 2007
21 Nov 2007 · S3 · Audit Committee
Item of business
“Dealing with offending by young people”
The next item on the agenda is a discussion on dealing with offending by young people—a topic that has exercised people from time to time and caused some controversy over the years. Audit Scotland has examined performance on the matter in some detail and produced a report entitled "Dealing with offending by young people: Performance update". We have decided to take evidence on its report and to hear from some officials from the education department. I welcome Philip Rycroft, who is the director general education; Colin Maclean, who is the director of the children, young people and social care directorate; and Donna Bell, who is the team leader in the care and justice division. They are all well known to me from a previous capacity, but I look forward to having a discussion with them from another perspective.I invite Philip Rycroft to make an opening statement before we go into the matter in some detail.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
The next item on the agenda is a discussion on dealing with offending by young people—a topic that has exercised people from time to time and caused some con...
Philip Rycroft (Scottish Government Director General Education):
I will invite my two colleagues to contribute as questions are asked because I am relatively new to the domain and Colin Maclean and Donna Bell have deep exp...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you. Before I invite members to ask questions, I want to pursue a couple of points that you made in your opening statement. You said that ministers are...
Philip Rycroft:
In a sense, it is not for me to guarantee anything around the financial packages. I am sure that you can talk to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustai...
The Convener:
Lab
Yes, but has the minister indicated to local government that she expects there to be no reduction in the resources available for tackling offending by young ...
Philip Rycroft:
All ministers have indicated—and agreed with local government—that local government will work with the Government to achieve the national outcomes. It will b...
The Convener:
Lab
So there is no guidance, no expectation and no indication to local government about how much should be spent on tackling reoffending. General outcomes are sp...
Philip Rycroft:
It will be for local government to decide how it works towards achieving the national outcomes. I should add that it is only a week since the concordat was s...
The Convener:
Lab
I understand that, but, as things stand, no requirement will be put on local government to spend money at the current level on dealing with offending by youn...
Philip Rycroft:
Decisions across the range of local government expenditure are for local government. That is absolutely explicit in the concordat that has been signed.
The Convener:
Lab
That is perfectly clear.
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
Annex B of the concordat states that there is no longer ring fencing for antisocial behaviour funding, funding for community safety partnerships, the police ...
Philip Rycroft:
I anticipated that this session might turn into more of a forward-looking one than a backward-looking one. Of course we were consulted on that. We were absol...
George Foulkes:
Lab
Do you think it is a good thing that funding for those things is no longer ring fenced?
Philip Rycroft:
If ministers did not think it was a good thing that it was not ring fenced, it would still be ring fenced.
George Foulkes:
Lab
What is your view?
The Convener:
Lab
I do not think that it is for Mr Rycroft to answer that question—it is a matter for the minister. Our concerns are about whether the resources will be availa...
George Foulkes:
Lab
With respect, convener, is it not a material issue in respect of whether the resources will be available?
The Convener:
Lab
It is a material issue, but it is one for the minister rather than for Mr Rycroft.
George Foulkes:
Lab
I see. We will have to question the minister.
The Convener:
Lab
That may well be the case.
Philip Rycroft:
It is worth pointing out that the overall resource envelope for local government will increase during the spending review period, in the context of a clear a...
George Foulkes:
Lab
But it would be possible not to spend money on the areas that are not ring fenced and to move it into a completely different area.
Philip Rycroft:
That is, in theory, entirely true—just as it would be possible for a local authority not to spend any money on schools and instead to spend it all on parks o...
The Convener:
Lab
I understand that, but it involves a huge leap of faith.When I was the Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care, a local authority, which will remain na...
Philip Rycroft:
Yes.
The Convener:
Lab
Do you have any evidence that they have not been used appropriately?
Philip Rycroft:
You will be aware that we have very little evidence about their use for under-16s, because as I understand it only six have been issued, which does not give ...
The Convener:
Lab
But you have no evidence that they have been used inappropriately.
Philip Rycroft:
By the same token, we do not. However, we have a lot of evidence that, to address offending behaviour, it is not sufficient only to go for the offending bit;...