Committee
Equal Opportunities Committee, 28 Oct 2003
28 Oct 2003 · S2 · Equal Opportunities Committee
Item of business
Civil Partnership Registration
Tim Hopkins:
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That rolls two different issues into one. The first is the issue of mixed-sex couples and civil partnership; the second is the issue of household companions. I shall deal with the second issue first.The Scottish Executive and the UK Government agree completely, as do we, that the kind of relationship that household companions have—for example, the relationship between two elderly spinsters who have lived together for 30 years or the relationship between a man and his grandfather whom he has looked after for 20 years—is different from the kind of relationship that civil partnership is aimed at. Civil partnership is aimed at couples who live together in a relationship that is like the relationship between husband and wife. Same-sex couples are recognised as such in Scots law, in various pieces of legislation that deal with cohabiting. Civil partnership is about marriage-like relationships and, at the moment, same-sex couples cannot enter those relationships at all. That is a key issue. Something needs to be introduced to ensure that same-sex couples and their children—if they have children—get the same range of protections.The law may need to be improved to give better protection to people such as two elderly spinsters sharing a household; however, that is a separate issue. We would have no problem with that issue being examined or with consultation on it being undertaken. Nonetheless, it is a completely separate issue and should be progressed separately. It certainly should not be used as an excuse to hold up dealing with the very real problem that is faced by committed same-sex couples.In our consultation, we met mixed-sex couples who said that they did not want to marry but that they would want to enter a civil partnership. They were people who were living together as husband and wife but who, for a number of reasons, did not want to marry. At the conference about this subject, last year, I met a woman who is a member of the House of Lords. She has been married, but her husband died some years previously and she is now in a relationship with another man. She does not want to marry him, as she sees her marriage as a unique, lifelong commitment; however, sadly, her husband died. She would like to access the package of protections that would come with civil partnership, but not by marrying her partner.There are many such reasons why a minority of mixed-sex couples would want to enter a civil partnership, and that is one reason why we think that civil partnership should be open to mixed-sex couples. Another reason is that limiting civil partnership to same-sex couples would package same-sex relationships into a different kind of thing from mixed-sex relationships. That would set up a system that would put mixed-sex relationships in one place and same-sex relationships in another place, with the two forever different in law.A third reason for allowing mixed-sex couples to enter civil partnership relates to transsexual people. As you may know, another piece of legislation is being produced at Westminster that will, for the first time, allow transsexual people to have their true gender recognised in law—that is, their brain gender as opposed to their body gender. That will involve transsexual people registering their real gender, at which point their legal gender will change from what it was on their birth certificate to what it really is. If civil partnership was open only to same-sex couples, there would be a problem for transsexual people who entered a civil partnership in their legal gender before they had registered their true gender. When they went through the registration process, they would have to dissolve the civil partnership, as civil partnerships would be allowed only for same-sex couples and the relationship would have become a mixed-sex relationship, legally, although it would be the same relationship.For those reasons, we feel that civil partnership should be open to mixed-sex couples as well. The UK Government strongly opposes that, and it will not happen in the Westminster bill. Nevertheless, the Scottish Parliament could consider extending civil partnership to mixed-sex couples in devolved areas, and we would like the Parliament and the Scottish Executive to look into that, in time—which means probably in the context of the family law bill that will be introduced in perhaps a year's time. The UK Government clearly does not agree with the principle of extending civil partnership to same-sex couples; therefore, that will not happen through the Westminster bill.I am sorry that I have spoken so long about that.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome Patrick Harvie to the meeting. If you want to participate by raising issues with the committee or asking questions of the witnesses, please feel fr...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
Thank you.
The Convener:
Lab
I also give a warm welcome to Tim Hopkins from the Equality Network, Ali Jarvis from Stonewall Scotland and Hilary Campbell from Couple Counselling Scotland....
Tim Hopkins (Equality Network):
The quick answer is yes. We consulted lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people throughout Scotland over a period of two and a half years. It was clear t...
Ali Jarvis (Stonewall Scotland):
We, too, support the proposals. We have been working with the Westminster Government and the Scottish Parliament on considering the balance between devolved ...
Hilary Campbell (Couple Counselling Scotland):
All relationships have stresses and strains and the couples who come to us have the same issues—communication, kids, jobs and money—irrespective of their gen...
The Convener:
Lab
At our meeting on 7 October, we heard about findings from the Scottish social attitudes survey that showed that discriminatory attitudes are still prevalent ...
Tim Hopkins:
One of the major issues is couples' being treated as a single financial unit. When two people are married, they are treated as a single financial unit and ar...
Ali Jarvis:
It is important to consider not only the legal but the social discrimination that same-sex couples face. For example, I was advised recently of a case in Oba...
Hilary Campbell:
I underline what Tim Hopkins and Ali Jarvis have said. There is a myth that lesbian and gay people do not have long-term relationships. That is absolute garb...
Mrs Milne:
Con
To what extent do you believe that legislation that is enacted on the basis of the proposals from the UK Government and the Scottish Executive will be effect...
Ali Jarvis:
It will be largely effective with regard to civil partnerships and the recognition of same-sex relationships. Although we still need to recognise that social...
Tim Hopkins:
The proposals as they stand are not complete. For example, certain issues—in particular, parenting issues in Scotland, adoption and fostering roles—are being...
Hilary Campbell:
We see the proposed legislation as an enabling measure. People make choices about their relationships. The ability to choose to make a public commitment will...
Mrs Milne:
Con
The Scottish Executive's consultation paper states that civil partnership registration for same-sex couples will be introduced in Scotland in the event that ...
Tim Hopkins:
You are right. Two previous Westminster bills on civil partnership were introduced by back benchers without Government support. As a result, it is not really...
Hilary Campbell:
We hope that, on this matter, the Scottish Parliament will be as leading edge as it usually is.
Shiona Baird:
Green
The Executive has stated that the Scottish Parliament could legislate for a scheme that is open to mixed-sex couples and, perhaps, household companions. Howe...
Tim Hopkins:
That rolls two different issues into one. The first is the issue of mixed-sex couples and civil partnership; the second is the issue of household companions....
The Convener:
Lab
That was helpful. Thank you.
Hilary Campbell:
We, too, would like civil partnership to be extended to mixed-sex couples. The census showed a significant increase in the number of cohabiting couples in Sc...
Ali Jarvis:
The only thing that I would add is that at this stage our view is one of focus and priority. At the moment, the greatest disadvantage is faced by same-sex co...
Marlyn Glen:
Lab
The view has been expressed that extending similar rights to registered same-sex couples to those that are held by married couples would undermine marriage. ...
Tim Hopkins:
If the two gay men or two lesbians who live at number 24 enter into a civil partnership, the fact is that that has no effect on the married couple who live a...
Ali Jarvis:
Anything that gives couples the opportunity to recognise that stability and commitment are important social factors can only enhance all the different social...
Hilary Campbell:
We do not think that it would undermine marriage at all. We respect the choices of all the couples who come to us—whatever form their relationship takes.
Marlyn Glen:
Lab
It is helpful to have that put on the record. At its meeting on 23 September, the Equal Opportunities Committee expressed concern about the press statement t...
Ali Jarvis:
We were very uncomfortable with it and wrote to put that on the record. I return to the point that Hilary Campbell made about choice and respect. We need to ...
Hilary Campbell:
What is really important is the quality of the relationship. People need to live in loving, happy families in which the relationships are good. We do not hav...
Tim Hopkins:
I have nothing to add.