Holyrood, made browsable

Hansard

Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

129
Current MSPs
415
MSPs ever elected
14
Parties on record
2,096,445
Hansard contributions
1999–2026
Coverage span
Official Report

Search Hansard contributions

Clear
Showing 0 of 2,096,445 contributions in session S6, 13 May 2026 – 12 Jun 2026. Latest 30 days: 3,975. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 11 Jun 2026.

No contributions match those filters.

← Back to list
Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 08 March 2017

08 Mar 2017 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Education
Smith, Liz Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I will start on what I hope is a constructive note, because I think that some of Mr Gray’s analysis is correct, and that some of the cabinet secretary’s analysis is correct. That exchange between them flags up what I think is a deeper problem, which is not about who is right and who is wrong but about the nature of the evidence by which we make our judgments. That came through very strongly at the meeting of the Education and Skills Committee this morning, but it has also been coming through in many studies that have been done on Scottish education.

One of the base problems that we face, which has been picked up by the OECD and by some of our education experts, is that in order to make a value judgment—which is what we are all looking for; I do not doubt the integrity of every member to do what is best for education—we need to be absolutely clear that the base evidence is relevant and accurate. One of the great sadnesses about CFE was that evidence was not taken at the appropriate time. It is therefore very difficult for us to measure progress—or, in some cases, the lack of progress. That judgment is crucial, so if we are going to do what is right for education—which will bind together some points that Mr Gray made and some points that the cabinet secretary has made—that evidence is also absolutely crucial.

I will go back to evidence to the Education and Skills Committee. The committee has been criticised on the bases that some of the judgments that we have made have not been formulated around a wide enough evidence base, that evidence has been unbalanced, and that, in some cases, the committee has perhaps not given due credibility to some people who have been involved in the debate. I worry about that, because I think that one of the most important things in Parliament is its committee system and how we scrutinise what is going on. I give credit to the committee’s current convener, who I think has had a very difficult job in trying to marshall the evidence.

The committee had to apply a lot of our value judgments on what teachers were saying to us in formal evidence to committee, in evidence that we heard in private focus groups, and in evidence that we, as members of the Scottish Parliament, collect when we go round the schools. We have had to listen to the teachers in great numbers and to all the associations that represent them, but it does not matter whether it was geography teachers, the Modern Studies Association, computing experts or people in the unions, because much of the other part of the research base was not there, which makes making a judgment difficult.

On assessing where we stand on CFE just now, I say that there are very good things going on in Scottish education—of course there are, and we need to acknowledge that. Incidentally, just before I came into the chamber, I heard about the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland being ranked third in the world for performing arts education institutions. That is a tremendous accolade for Scottish education, and we should all recognise it. [Applause.]

However, let us not detract from the motion. Mr Gray is absolutely right to flag up a lot of the great difficulties in education just now. When the PISA results came out, the cabinet secretary had the good grace to acknowledge the extent of the challenge that we face. Let us just deal with the extent of that challenge, because—my goodness!—it is extensive. The PISA scores show us exactly where we have to go to ensure that we are bringing Scottish education up—not just for the lower attainment group but for the higher attainment group, as well. It is not just about closing the attainment gap; it is also about raising the level of the whole of Scottish education. We know from the PISA scores exactly how much we have to do.

We also know that we have problems in teacher recruitment, which were well spelled out by the Labour Party this afternoon. Last week, we learned that we have serious shortages in key subjects including English and maths. That is a serious worry for education.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-04456, in the name of Iain Gray, on the Scottish Government and education: 10 years of letting down teach...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Too often, when we debate education in general and schools in particular, we forget the historical context. The truth is that the responsibility of this Parl...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I ask Mr Sarwar and Mr Dornan not to have a discussion across the chamber.
Iain Gray Lab
We have aspired to have the best schools that we can imagine. Now, it seems that the Government’s benchmark is to be less bad than England. Is that really th...
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
I hear what the member says, so let us talk about the situation in Scotland. Is he aware that West Dunbartonshire Council sought to cut the school week by ha...
Iain Gray Lab
To tell the truth, when it comes to cutting the school week, what I remember best is the massive public meeting in Renfrewshire when the council there was ru...
The Minister for Childcare and Early Years (Mark McDonald) SNP
Iain Gray cites teacher shortages. Does he feel that it is sensible for Labour-led Aberdeen City Council to have written out to teachers to offer them volunt...
Iain Gray Lab
Every council in the country has laboured under the strain of the £1.5 billion of cuts that local government has suffered in the past few years. Mr Swinney ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills (John Swinney) SNP
Iain Gray said that it is “right and reasonable” to hold the Government to account. That is, of course, correct. The Government is here to be held to account...
Iain Gray Lab
I regularly go to all those high schools, and what they tell me is that they ain’t got enough teachers and cannot recruit teachers for the vacancies that the...
John Swinney SNP
What those schools will also tell Mr Gray—Interruption. Lewis Macdonald is shouting that I should answer the point. I have answered in my amendment the point...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Mr Swinney mentioned teacher training and recruitment. That is precisely the crisis that local authorities across the north of Scotland face. Mr Swinney refe...
John Swinney SNP
We have introduced 11 new mechanisms to encourage people to join the teaching profession, we increased postgraduate diploma in education intake by 19 per cen...
Iain Gray Lab
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
John Swinney SNP
Hold on a second. We have had a 30 per cent increase in higher passes since 2007, an increase to 93.3 per cent in positive destinations being achieved by yo...
Iain Gray Lab
Mr Swinney must acknowledge that I did celebrate successes in education in my speech. The point that he misses is that the motion is about his and his Govern...
John Swinney SNP
I will go through them again in case Mr Gray did not hear. Since 2007, when this Government came to office, we have had a 30 per cent increase in the higher ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Just a wee minute. I would like to hear all speeches, please, thank you.
John Swinney SNP
Yes—those achievements have been by the young people of Scotland, but they have done that in an education system over which this Government has been presidin...
Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Green
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am sorry, but the cabinet secretary is in his last minute.
John Swinney SNP
Okay, Presiding Officer. I will conclude by outlining some of the measures that the Government is taking to address the issues. The Government has made avai...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Liz Smith. You have seven minutes, please. 14:28
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
I will start on what I hope is a constructive note, because I think that some of Mr Gray’s analysis is correct, and that some of the cabinet secretary’s anal...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
Of course.
Neil Findlay Lab
Does Liz Smith agree that closure of the undergraduate primary teaching degree course at the University of Edinburgh will be a further hindrance to recruitin...
Liz Smith Con
Yes, I agree. There are serious concerns about that closure, so it must be looked at. I know that the cabinet secretary has initiated a new discussion about ...
Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
The member is in her last minute.