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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 22 March 2016

22 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill

I enjoyed Nanette Milne’s valedictory speech, although she had me googling Nanette Newman to double check that I know who that is, and I do. Unfortunately, I am not that young; I just wanted to check that I was right.

I thank Nanette Milne for all her hard and diligent work on the Health and Sport Committee, which she was a member of, with me, for a number of years. I very much appreciate the constructive partnership approach that she took and I wish her the very best for the many years of her retirement outwith the Parliament. I suspect that she will be back to the real world rather than the bubble of Holyrood. I give her best wishes for her retirement.

I also thank all the witnesses who gave evidence to the Health and Sport Committee and the range of committees that took evidence on the bill. Most of all, I thank the families whom other MSPs and I met, who came forward bravely, fiercely and diligently to make their voices heard about the shortcomings in the service that should have been their due, that they expected and that should have been delivered to them when they had the most horrific experiences of their lives. They were let down by the organisational framework and people who failed in their service to them. I thank the parents who came forward to help to shape the bill.

I have written down a few words about what I think the bill is about. For me, it is about bereavement and loss as much as anything else. That thread runs through it all. When a person suffers bereavement and loss, it is about feeling in control and knowing that there is transparency and certainty in the process that they face, that there is compassion along the way, that there is sensitivity and flexibility to deal with the loss in the way that they see fit, and that they have that choice.

At the bottom of it all, there is also the expectation that when someone loses a loved one, they should be able to choose how that person’s remains are dealt with, and that there will be ashes, should they wish to have them. It is said that 99.9 per cent of the time we should expect to get the ashes of loved ones who have passed away. The bill should ensure that people can get them every time.

The legislation that underpinned things was archaic and fragmented, and, to be frank, it was poor and shoddy. The bill as amended at stage 3 provides a coherent statutory framework with which to take forward a modern way of dealing with these tragic events.

When we considered one of the stage 3 amendments, I intervened on the minister in relation to section 54A. The minister quite rightly said that the amendment that we were discussing did not refer to section 54A, but I wanted to make a point about pregnancy loss and situations in which pregnancy loss is expected. A powerful aspect of the bill is that it expects higher standards of care across the national health service when expectant mothers lose their babies, whether that happens before or after 24 weeks of pregnancy. They will be given the choices that too often they have been denied. I said during consideration of amendments that many mums are sent home and told that they can expect a miscarriage or pregnancy loss in the next week or so, and they have to deal with the pain and grief that surrounds that tragedy. Section 54A affords those mums the same choice, power, protection and control that others who go through similar horrific experiences have—they should always have had that.

We must build on the bill and we must look at the continuum of loss and bereavement, from when it happens in pregnancy to when it happens in old age. We must draw the issue right down to recurrent miscarriage and early pregnancy loss, how we deal with the mental health of expectant mums and how we support families in relation to that, and how we ensure that when they lose their unborn children, we deal with that loss in a very sensitive way that gives them the maximum amount of choice. The NHS has not always got that right.

The Parliament can legislate any way that it likes. The key aspects of this issue are empathy, respect and dignity, and the conversations that people have, whether that is NHS staff having conversations with mums who experience pregnancy loss or funeral directors having empathy and compassion in the discussions that they have with families who experience loss. We cannot legislate for those things; we have to hope that the human condition makes them happen in a positive and constructive way. We can, however, legislate for the framework that underpins all that. I hope that we do better in the years ahead than we have done in the past.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15996, in the name of Maureen Watt, on the Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill. Before I invite the mini...
The Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport (Shona Robison) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I wish to advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Burial and...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Many thanks. I call Maureen Watt to speak to and move the motion. 11:11
The Minister for Public Health (Maureen Watt) SNP
I am delighted to open the stage 3 debate on the Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, the Local Gover...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I would like to start in the same way as the minister by thanking the Health and Sport Committee, the Local Government and Regeneration Committee and the Del...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Thank you. I call Dr Nanette Milne. Members might want to note that this is Dr Milne’s valedictory speech. On behalf of the Parliament, I would like to than...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Thank you very much for those kind words, Presiding Officer. Of the seven bills that the Health and Sport Committee dealt with during this session of the Pa...
The Minister for Sport, Health Improvement and Mental Health (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
No pressure, Jackson.
Nanette Milne Con
Jackson Carlaw quickly absorbed the detail of our health service, which I have lived and breathed for a long time. It has been a privilege to represent the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
We wish you every success in the future, of course. We move to the open debate, with six-minute speeches. 11:32
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
I enjoyed Nanette Milne’s valedictory speech, although she had me googling Nanette Newman to double check that I know who that is, and I do. Unfortunately, I...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Before we proceed, I should apologise to Parliament for having inadvertently misled it. I am expecting four-minute speeches in this debate, but there is quit...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
I pay tribute to Nanette Milne for the massive contribution that she has made on health and other issues during her 13 years in the Parliament. I have enjoye...
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
I, too, pay tribute to Dr Nanette Milne. Over the years, we have agreed, we have disagreed and we have agreed to disagree, but there has been no malice when ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Thank you, Mr Stewart. You actually got five minutes. 11:48
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I join others in paying tribute to Nanette Milne for her valedictory speech, but also for her service to the Parliament. She is always thoughtful and conside...
Kevin Stewart SNP
Is Rhoda Grant saying that she does not trust councillors to make commonsense decisions in that regard?
Rhoda Grant Lab
The next time that I hear Kevin Stewart complaining about a council planning decision, I will remind him of his words. I think that we are all aware of counc...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
Like others, I welcome the bill and anticipate its passage come decision time. Burials and cremations are, of course, a very important part of most people’s...
Lesley Brennan (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As many members have said, the bill covers many sensitive topics. I have focused on funeral poverty because of my experience as a councillor and, as I mentio...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak in this important debate on the Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill, particularly as I am a member of the Health and Sport Committee...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind) Ind
I put on record my thanks to Dr Nanette Milne for her quiet words, particularly when we served together on the Public Petitions Committee. It has always been...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We turn to closing speeches. I invite the two colleagues who have participated in the debate and are missing to return to the chamber. 12:13
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con) Con
The bill is a contract between the Parliament and the parents who reacted with anguish, bewilderment, astonishment and dismay earlier in the parliamentary se...
Kevin Stewart SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackson Carlaw Con
I know that his contribution was well intentioned; maybe the folks—as Kevin Stewart likes to refer to them—in old Aberdeen do things differently up there. Ho...
Kevin Stewart SNP
I know that we all get upset from time to time about planning decisions. However, in sensitive cases such as the ones that we have discussed, councillors nor...
Jackson Carlaw Con
As Kevin Stewart said, councillors “normally” act wisely. That underlines the point that there must be occasions on which they do not act in that way. John W...
Jenny Marra Lab
Since I have two opportunities to speak in the debate, I will use this one to pay tribute to some of my colleagues who are leaving Parliament. As several o...
Maureen Watt SNP
I thank all members for their contribution to the debate. Throughout the bill’s progress, there has been strong support for its principles. I am grateful to...