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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 08 March 2016

08 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

At various stages, I have referred to the diversity as well as the quality of our university sector. During our consideration of the bill, we have heard ample evidence of both and pleas to avoid doing anything that would undermine either. The poster child for that has perhaps been the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, whose staff, students, management and stakeholders have all made abundantly clear their outright opposition to the bill applying to their institution.

No one can seriously dispute the uniqueness of what the conservatoire does, how it is set up and the expectations that are placed on it. That was set out in the letters that the Education and Culture Committee received from the widest possible cross-section of the conservatoire’s stakeholder community, which expressed collective dismay at the bill’s consequences for the conservatoire. Those concerns exemplify the risks that are inherent in taking the blunt instrument of legislation to something that is as diverse and complex as our university sector.

By way of illustration, in a letter this week to Dr Allan, the principal of the conservatoire, Professor Jeffrey Sharkey, stated:

“An election for a Chair will be especially divisive, disruptive and diversionary given our scale ... and our disciplinary focus. Elections will sow the seeds of division and will politicise the role of Chair.”

Given that the election of chairs is now embedded in the bill, the only option left for addressing those concerns is to allow for the conservatoire to be removed from the application of the bill’s provisions.

I pay tribute to Sandra White for the efforts that she has made in articulating that case, which she has done on behalf not solely of the conservatoire but of Glasgow School of Art. She has argued forcefully on behalf of both institutions and has highlighted the extent and range of ways in which both institutions are unique and are ill suited to the statutory approach that ministers favour.

Although Scotland’s Rural College has been mentioned less frequently in dispatches than its more artistic counterparts, its claim for an exemption is arguably no less strong. In truth, the most sensible approach at this late stage is to leave open the opportunity for each institution to make its case to ministers for exemption. It would then be for ministers to decide whether that was justified in whole or in part.

The only way in which that could be done would be through the more general exemption that my amendment 25 proposes, rather than the institution-specific approach that Sandra White and others took—quite reasonably—at stage 2. Other universities may well believe that they have a case for partial exemption from certain provisions. For example, in the past Jim Eadie has made a pressing case on behalf of the University of Edinburgh. The more general approach that I propose would have the benefit of allowing such arguments to be considered more fully and would leave the ultimate decision with ministers.

That said, given that the conservatoire has been the cause célèbre on the issue, I will leave the final word with Professor Sharkey, who said:

“The problem that this Bill seeks to solve in relation to the Conservatoire has not been articulated. Given the opposition of the entire Conservatoire community to the Bill, the risks and costs associated with its implementation, and in the absence of any clear benefits that might outweigh those risks and costs, we believe that the Conservatoire should be excluded from its scope.”

I look forward to the contributions of members on all sides of the chamber.

I move amendment 25.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Group 1 is on the role of the rector. Amendment 27, in the name of Chic Brodie, is grouped with amendment 31.
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
The bill, which I hope will receive full scrutiny after some years of enactment, has as its base democratic accountability. The purpose of amendments 27 and ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Mr Brodie has outlined today and at stage 2 that there are, at present, clear divisions and clear lines of responsibility between the senior lay governor and...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
During stage 1 evidence, the cabinet secretary made it clear to the Education and Culture Committee that it was not the Government’s intention, through the b...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Angela Constance) SNP
I thank Mr Brodie for his explanation of amendments 27 and 31. As he set out, amendment 27 would remove the requirement for the universities of Glasgow, Edin...
Liz Smith Con
The cabinet secretary has said many times that the diversity of the higher education sector is crucial. That is one of the reasons why we have different posi...
Angela Constance SNP
I am concerned that Mr Brodie’s amendments would confuse the role of rector and that of co-chair and would confuse the role of co-chair and that of senior la...
Chic Brodie SNP
We have not reached the detailed discussion of the further proposals that are attached to my amendments. If the Government proceeds with its proposal, it wil...
Angela Constance SNP
With respect, I do not believe that what Mr Brodie proposes would lead to any consistency. What the Government seeks to do in the bill is to reflect the Scot...
Liz Smith Con
The code of good governance is being reviewed. Would it have been sensible to await the results of that review before proposing the changes in the bill?
Angela Constance SNP
No. It is important that the code of governance is reviewed as appropriate, but the bill is high level and discrete in its proposition, and I refute the sugg...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Angela Constance SNP
Not just now. A key principle of the bill is to enable an approach to governance that is based on greater transparency, accountability and inclusivity to su...
Annabel Goldie Con
I seem to be one of the few members of this Parliament who have served on a university court. I am listening with care to what the cabinet secretary is sayin...
Angela Constance SNP
I say with the greatest respect to Ms Goldie that the questions are not unanswered. No one needs to be a member of a university governing body to understand ...
Chic Brodie SNP
I am even more confused now about what the senior lay member will do vis-à-vis what the rector will do in the ancient universities. Who will speak for the st...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
The question is, that amendment 27 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
There will be a division. As this is the first division, I suspend the meeting for five minutes. 15:33 Meeting suspended. 15:38 On resuming—
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We will now proceed with the division on amendment 27. For Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian)...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
The result of the division is: For 20, Against 91, Abstentions 0. Amendment 27 disagreed to.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Group 2 is on the role of the chairing member and the co-chair. Amendment 28, in the name of Chic Brodie, is grouped with amendments 29, 1, 30 and 40.
Chic Brodie SNP
All my amendments in the group reflect the proposed roles of the chairing members, which I referred to earlier, and of the co-chairs, and embrace the changes...
Liz Smith Con
My amendment 1 is a very simple amendment that is intended to make it clear that the list of duties that is set out in section A1(2) is not in any way an exh...
Liam McArthur LD
My comments on Chic Brodie’s previous amendments apply equally in this instance. I will not repeat myself; we will support the amendments in this group as we...
Angela Constance SNP
I will deal with amendments 28 to 30 and 40 from Chic Brodie and amendment 1 from Liz Smith. The role of senior lay member of the governing body is central...
Liz Smith Con
Is it not the case that there is considerable confusion in the bill over the roles of the rector and the chair? That is the reason why we have a considerable...
Angela Constance SNP
No, we do not have a “considerable problem”. As I have said to Liz Smith and other colleagues, the difference between the role of the rector and that of the ...
Liz Smith Con
Is it not the case that the 18 higher education institutions have very different structures? The whole point of the bill is to allow them to have that divers...
Angela Constance SNP
As has been said a few times, the bill acknowledges the diversity of our institutions, which should be valued. However, we want a high level of consistency a...