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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 March 2016

10 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill: Stage 3

Amendment 29 seeks to give the Fiscal Commission responsibility for, first, scrutinising the Government’s performance against fiscal rules and, secondly, considering the sustainability of our public finances. In lodging the amendment, I have reflected on the cabinet secretary’s comments at stage 2 and the original intentions of the Finance Committee, both in its report on fiscal institutions and in its stage 1 report on the bill.

Across the world, fiscal institutions have a role in looking at fiscal rules and the future sustainability of public finances, so that role is nothing new. In the 17 Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development countries that have been researched on the issue, 15 have institutions that have a responsibility for looking at the long-term sustainability of public finances and 11 have institutions that have a role in monitoring compliance with fiscal rules: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Portugal, Sweden and the United Kingdom, to name but a few. It is normal for fiscal institutions to do those things.

Mr Swinney asked at stage 1, and has asked since, what the fiscal rules are. I would expect him, as finance secretary, to know that, but I will help him. There are the fiscal rules that are set out in the Public Finance and Accountability (Scotland) Act 2000. There are also the fiscal rules in relation to capital borrowing, revenue borrowing and the budget exchange mechanism, all three of which will change when the new Scotland Bill is enacted. There is also the fiscal rule that is set by the Scottish Government itself: the 5 per cent revenue-financed projects cap. In addition, there are the rules that are set out in the fiscal framework agreement, including on the Scotland reserve. We should be interested in making sure that those are scrutinised and reported on to Parliament.

I turn to the sustainability of public finances. When we consider the International Monetary Fund fiscal council data set, we can see that the second most important function of the emerging new generation of fiscal councils is to judge the long-term sustainability of public finances. I do not see why we should not want that to be done. The majority of expert witnesses to the committee agreed that it was important to look at both the fiscal rules and the long-term sustainability of public finances.

The Scottish Fiscal Commission said in a letter to the committee that it

“believes it should have responsibility for assessing the Scottish Government’s forecast on the sustainability of Scotland’s public finances, such as adherence to fiscal rules ... and it would welcome the Bill being amended now to anticipate this additional responsibility”.

Indeed, Professor Andrew Hughes Hallett, a member of the Scottish Fiscal Commission, said in evidence to the Finance Committee that the bill should be amended to make explicit that the commission has a role in assessing fiscal sustainability.

Professor Campbell Leith, another member of the commission—we should remember that the members of the commission are appointed by the cabinet secretary himself—said:

“One of the main objectives of creating a fiscal commission is to ensure fiscal sustainability.”—[Official Report, Finance Committee, 25 November 2015; c 47.]

The committee convener, Kenny Gibson, in reflecting the committee’s unanimous view on the role of the commission, said:

“We believe it should assess the Scottish Government’s adherence to its fiscal rules and assess the long-term sustainability of the public finances. This will further strengthen the independent scrutiny role of the Commission and reflects the view of many witnesses who have appeared before the Committee.”

Those are not my words; they are Kenny Gibson’s words. The IMF, the OECD, SFC members, the Finance Committee and numerous expert witnesses say that it is a good thing, so I hope that the cabinet secretary is listening and will indeed support my amendment 29.

I move amendment 29.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is stage 3 of the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill. Interruption. Is there a problem? Thank you, Ms Baillie. In dealing with the am...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Group 1 is on forecasting. Amendment 1, in the name of the Deputy First Minister, is grouped with amendments 2 to 6, 8, 9, 12, 15 to 18, 20, 21 and 22.
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to the amendments. The fiscal framework requires the Scottish Fiscal Commission to prepare forecasts of tax revenu...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
At this stage, does the Deputy First Minister have a view on what is meant by “sufficient time”? Does it mean a day, a week or a month?
John Swinney SNP
In reality, I suspect that the time would probably be less than two weeks before the date of the budget. That will not be specified. We can probably shed mor...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I support and very much welcome amendment 1 and all the other amendments in the group. Scottish Labour first argued in January 2015 that the Fiscal Commissi...
Gavin Brown Con
The journey on fiscal forecasts has indeed been a rich tapestry, but I am delighted to say that we are getting there in the end. The change is probably the ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
It is no secret that, as one of the members of the Finance Committee, I have at no point been convinced that the SFC should do the forecasting. My main reaso...
John Swinney SNP
In her initial comments, Jackie Baillie said that she was rising to support the amendments. If that was a speech of support, I would hate to hear a speech th...
Gavin Brown Con
In that case, did the minister encourage or attempt to persuade SNP members on the committee to change their view at stage 2?
John Swinney SNP
I would make absolutely no attempt to try to persuade members of the committee to do anything other than what they thought was the right thing to do, in the ...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Did the cabinet secretary perhaps share with them the negotiations that were going on on the fiscal framework?
John Swinney SNP
As Jackie Baillie knows, I have maintained absolute confidentiality around negotiations with the Treasury, which was the proper approach for me to take to en...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Group 2 is on review of performance against fiscal rules and sustainability of public finances. Amendment 29, in the name of Jackie Baillie, is the only amen...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Amendment 29 seeks to give the Fiscal Commission responsibility for, first, scrutinising the Government’s performance against fiscal rules and, secondly, con...
Gavin Brown Con
I rise to support amendment 29, on fiscal rules and sustainability of public finances. As Jackie Baillie said, the Finance Committee agreed in its entirety o...
John Swinney SNP
I welcome the opportunity to debate Jackie Baillie’s amendment, which, as she and Gavin Brown indicated, was debated at stage 2 in a different form, although...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
Would it not be difficult for members to hold the Government to account on that issue if they did not have a level of analysis from the Fiscal Commission or ...
John Swinney SNP
My judgment is that there is no lack of financial information that circulates around in relation to the budget-setting process. Malcolm Chisholm and I are bo...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I was struck by the cabinet secretary’s comment that if further borrowing powers emerge, he might be prepared to look at this issue again. Is that not to con...
John Swinney SNP
At no stage did I use any of the language that Baroness Goldie used when she suggested the reasons why I do not support amendment 29. At no stage did I use t...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I intend to press the amendment. The cabinet secretary has deployed some of those arguments previously, so let me take them in turn. First, he says that thi...
John Swinney SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie Lab
I will give way in a second. Audit Scotland has published a number of reports on developing financial reporting in Scotland, and it recently wrote to the Fi...
John Swinney SNP
I am grateful to Jackie Baillie for giving way. I wanted to intervene when Jackie Baillie set out Audit Scotland’s functions. Essentially, those functions a...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I do not think that the amendment is unnecessary, or that it provides duplication. Nevertheless, I suggested to the cabinet secretary a way of ensuring that ...
John Mason SNP
I make my intervention for the sake of completeness, seeing as Jackie Baillie mentioned me. I do not think that this issue is absolutely central. I felt ver...
Jackie Baillie Lab
John Mason says that he struggles to understand what difference my amendment would make. I simply observe that, for two years, he has nevertheless supported ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
The question is, that amendment 29 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
There will be a division. As this is the first division, I suspend the meeting for five minutes. 17:05 Meeting suspended. 17:10 On resuming—