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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 March 2016

10 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill
Chisholm, Malcolm Lab Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

As members have explained, this has been a long and twisting road. I am afraid that I have not been able to follow every turn—I am not on the Finance Committee—but I am pleased at the destination at which we have arrived.

When the original model was proposed, I had two worries about it. First, although the theory was that we would have Government forecasts on which the commission would then comment, it seemed as though SFC members were to act more as advisers to the Government, and there was to be constant interaction during the process. That may have meant that it had influence, but it also reduced its independence. That was a flaw in the model.

The more fundamental flaw was the commission not being involved in the forecasts. We were told that there is not a single fiscal commission anywhere that looks only at official Government forecasts, so that needed to be sorted out.

David Bell made an interesting comment about why that was necessary:

“I think it is essential that the forecasting is done outside Government, then you will know if they are wrong, which is probably going to be true, they will be honestly wrong rather than dishonestly wrong.”

I suppose that a more neutral way of putting that is that Governments tend to indulge in optimism bias. Therefore, I am pleased that the commission will now have an enhanced role. It is going to be reviewed—that is good—and that there can also be external evaluation of the commission’s work. Perhaps we can have a mechanism to do evaluation through local or international experts, as the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development recommends.

Beyond that, I am slightly worried about the overemphasis on checking, which we still hear from the cabinet secretary. I may have it wrong, but it appears that forecasters will be appointed and the SFC members will check them, which seems to me to be rather overengineered. I was also slightly surprised to hear that the Scottish Government will have its current forecasting capacity checking the SFC. That departs from the OBR model, so we need to keep an eye on it. One reason for that is that there will be increased expenditure; if all that capacity still exists in the Scottish Government and there is now to be extra capacity in the SFC, that will have financial implications.

Tax will be critical, but the commission will also have a role in relation to the new social security powers. The main issue that could be controversial between the two Governments in the next five years relates to spillover effects. The cabinet secretary pointed out in one or another of his committee appearances that information from the OBR and SFC would be helpful in resolving any controversies on those.

John Mason said that he is not excited by Jackie Baillie’s amendment and claimed that none of us is, but it is an important amendment. I hope that it will be revisited in due course. Many European countries have one or another of the responsibilities that are referred to in it.

I am particularly interested in an assessment of the long-term sustainability of the public finances. It is not one of Audit Scotland’s functions to project five years ahead what we know about policies and tax. The cabinet secretary says that I and everyone else can hold him to account on that, but we cannot. We do not have that information unless we have experts projecting over five years, as the OBR does. One of the problems is that there is almost a prejudice against the OBR among some members of the Parliament. The OBR produces good reports on financial sustainability five years ahead; I do not see why the Scottish Fiscal Commission should not perform the same function.

Although I welcome the changes that have been made in the bill, I hope that it is not the end of the process. I am sure that members who are coming back after the election will keep a close watch from inside the Parliament. I—and, no doubt, Gavin Brown—will keep a close watch from outside.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15869, in the name of John Swinney, on the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill. 17:20
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
The Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill will ensure that there is an independent fiscal institution operating at the heart of Scotland’s devolved fiscal framewor...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
What resources will the Scottish Government have? The cabinet secretary is talking about the possibility of the Government rejecting a commission forecast. W...
John Swinney SNP
I intend to maintain the resources within Government to ensure that we can satisfy ourselves that we have a forecast from the Fiscal Commission that we belie...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I very much welcome the opportunity to participate in this stage 3 debate on the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill. At the outset, I thank my colleagues on the...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
I will begin on a positive note. The bill that we now have—the bill that I hope will pass at decision time today—is considerably better than the bill that wa...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
I am happy to speak in today’s debate. I very much welcome the fact that we have a Fiscal Commission in place. We are now going to have a strengthened Fiscal...
Jackie Baillie Lab
John Mason has believed in the measure for more than two years. It was not about hunting for something to disagree with; it was about making sure that we hav...
John Mason SNP
We have that. As I have said, a major issue is who does the forecasting. Jackie Baillie’s amendment was on a peripheral issue. I find it hard to get excited ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Draw to a close, please.
John Mason SNP
Right. We have been very generous so far with the Fiscal Commission. It costs £850,000, which is more than the Irish or the Swedes get, and we should not thr...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
As members have explained, this has been a long and twisting road. I am afraid that I have not been able to follow every turn—I am not on the Finance Committ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We come to the closing speeches. I understand that this will be Gavin Brown’s last speech so, on behalf of the Presiding Officers, I thank him for his contri...
Gavin Brown Con
Presiding Officer, I did not realise until now that this would be my last speech. You obviously know something that I do not. The whip in this Parliament mus...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I have come late to the topic. I have not served on the Finance Committee, although I have watched some of its ambulations over the period. We have reached a...
John Swinney SNP
I begin with a comment that Malcolm Chisholm made. He was concerned about the Government maintaining its capacity to undertake the tax-forecasting function t...
Gavin Brown Con
Of course that responsibility falls to Parliament but, as we have heard time and time again, members of Parliament will be aided by the SFC’s analysis. As pa...
John Swinney SNP
That is a matter of opinion on which Mr Brown and I are going to have to disagree. There is plenty of information and analysis available that will enable Par...
John Swinney SNP
If Jamie McGrigor will forgive me, I am going to have to bring my remarks to a close. Mr Brown has not always been my strongest ally on what I have brought ...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
That concludes the debate on the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill. Before we move to the next item of business, I am minded at this stage to accept a motion ...