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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 March 2016

10 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill: Stage 3

I support and very much welcome amendment 1 and all the other amendments in the group.

Scottish Labour first argued in January 2015 that the Fiscal Commission should produce the official forecasts. We supported the Finance Committee’s view, which was reached after about two years of deliberation, that the Fiscal Commission should do the official forecasts. The committee’s report is one of the best that it has produced, and I commend those who were involved in it. In particular, I commend the convener of the committee, who said:

“we are strongly of the view that not only should the Scottish Fiscal Commission be independent, but it is vital that it is perceived to be independent. That is why we are calling for the Bill to be amended to strengthen the Commission’s role and to give it responsibility for producing the official forecasts.”

I think that we were all surprised when the bill was introduced. The cabinet secretary appeared to have ignored the Finance Committee and to have ignored his colleagues, and the bill was a pale imitation of what was required. The Government was intent on keeping control, and the Fiscal Commission was not to do the official forecasts.

At stage 1, the committee, with one exception, maintained its position and rejected the Government’s attempt to make the Fiscal Commission a less powerful body, so John Swinney was sent away tae think again. We were clear that in order to secure the Fiscal Commission’s independence and robustness in forecasts, it should be responsible for the official forecasts.

A few days later, that all changed. Scottish National Party members, including the convener of the committee, had somehow become converted. Some who are less generous than I might say that they had been nobbled, because they were suddenly convinced of John Swinney’s arguments. Was that a case of thumbscrews being applied, or did the convener of the committee believe that he had been wrong all along? I cannot ask Kenny Gibson that question, because he and Mark McDonald, who was one of the Finance Committee’s SNP members, are not in the chamber.

I am disappointed that it appeared that all that work was just being thrown away. However, having marched them up to the top of the hill, the cabinet secretary abandoned them there as he made a deal with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury that the Fiscal Commission would, contrary to his own view, do the official forecasting. Mr Swinney must be positively dizzy with all the about-turns that he is making, but I very much welcome them.

It is right that the Fiscal Commission should do the official forecasting. As a consequence, it will demonstrate its independence from Government. With new powers and new responsibilities coming to the Parliament, we must ensure that the institutions that we put in place are robust and transparent. John Swinney’s amendments will help us to do just that.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is stage 3 of the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill. Interruption. Is there a problem? Thank you, Ms Baillie. In dealing with the am...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Group 1 is on forecasting. Amendment 1, in the name of the Deputy First Minister, is grouped with amendments 2 to 6, 8, 9, 12, 15 to 18, 20, 21 and 22.
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to the amendments. The fiscal framework requires the Scottish Fiscal Commission to prepare forecasts of tax revenu...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
At this stage, does the Deputy First Minister have a view on what is meant by “sufficient time”? Does it mean a day, a week or a month?
John Swinney SNP
In reality, I suspect that the time would probably be less than two weeks before the date of the budget. That will not be specified. We can probably shed mor...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I support and very much welcome amendment 1 and all the other amendments in the group. Scottish Labour first argued in January 2015 that the Fiscal Commissi...
Gavin Brown Con
The journey on fiscal forecasts has indeed been a rich tapestry, but I am delighted to say that we are getting there in the end. The change is probably the ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
It is no secret that, as one of the members of the Finance Committee, I have at no point been convinced that the SFC should do the forecasting. My main reaso...
John Swinney SNP
In her initial comments, Jackie Baillie said that she was rising to support the amendments. If that was a speech of support, I would hate to hear a speech th...
Gavin Brown Con
In that case, did the minister encourage or attempt to persuade SNP members on the committee to change their view at stage 2?
John Swinney SNP
I would make absolutely no attempt to try to persuade members of the committee to do anything other than what they thought was the right thing to do, in the ...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Did the cabinet secretary perhaps share with them the negotiations that were going on on the fiscal framework?
John Swinney SNP
As Jackie Baillie knows, I have maintained absolute confidentiality around negotiations with the Treasury, which was the proper approach for me to take to en...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Group 2 is on review of performance against fiscal rules and sustainability of public finances. Amendment 29, in the name of Jackie Baillie, is the only amen...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Amendment 29 seeks to give the Fiscal Commission responsibility for, first, scrutinising the Government’s performance against fiscal rules and, secondly, con...
Gavin Brown Con
I rise to support amendment 29, on fiscal rules and sustainability of public finances. As Jackie Baillie said, the Finance Committee agreed in its entirety o...
John Swinney SNP
I welcome the opportunity to debate Jackie Baillie’s amendment, which, as she and Gavin Brown indicated, was debated at stage 2 in a different form, although...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
Would it not be difficult for members to hold the Government to account on that issue if they did not have a level of analysis from the Fiscal Commission or ...
John Swinney SNP
My judgment is that there is no lack of financial information that circulates around in relation to the budget-setting process. Malcolm Chisholm and I are bo...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I was struck by the cabinet secretary’s comment that if further borrowing powers emerge, he might be prepared to look at this issue again. Is that not to con...
John Swinney SNP
At no stage did I use any of the language that Baroness Goldie used when she suggested the reasons why I do not support amendment 29. At no stage did I use t...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I intend to press the amendment. The cabinet secretary has deployed some of those arguments previously, so let me take them in turn. First, he says that thi...
John Swinney SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie Lab
I will give way in a second. Audit Scotland has published a number of reports on developing financial reporting in Scotland, and it recently wrote to the Fi...
John Swinney SNP
I am grateful to Jackie Baillie for giving way. I wanted to intervene when Jackie Baillie set out Audit Scotland’s functions. Essentially, those functions a...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I do not think that the amendment is unnecessary, or that it provides duplication. Nevertheless, I suggested to the cabinet secretary a way of ensuring that ...
John Mason SNP
I make my intervention for the sake of completeness, seeing as Jackie Baillie mentioned me. I do not think that this issue is absolutely central. I felt ver...
Jackie Baillie Lab
John Mason says that he struggles to understand what difference my amendment would make. I simply observe that, for two years, he has nevertheless supported ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
The question is, that amendment 29 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
There will be a division. As this is the first division, I suspend the meeting for five minutes. 17:05 Meeting suspended. 17:10 On resuming—