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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 10 March 2016

10 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Lobbying (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Ferguson, Patricia Lab Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn Watch on SPTV

I rise to move amendment 12, speak to amendments 15 and 14, and support George Adam’s amendment 23.

The Government bill that the Parliament has before it suggests that only communications made orally, that is, face-to-face communication, videoconference or the like, should be deemed to be lobbying. In evidence to the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee, Dr Dinan of Spinwatch and the alliance for lobbying transparency and ethics regulation European Union—ALTER-EU—described the restriction to face-to-face communication as “ludicrous”, while Unlock Democracy described the current definition as

“a gift to those who might wish to keep their activity out of the public gaze”.

Professor Raj Chari of Trinity College, Dublin, an expert in the area, advised us that he was unaware of any legislation anywhere else that contained such a restriction. Carers Trust Scotland presumed charitably that it must just be an oversight. However, it is not an oversight. It is instead the policy position of the Scottish Government.

As a result of the evidence heard during stage 1, the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee, of which I am a member, suggested that the Scottish Government should consider including other forms of communication, such as emails, letters and telephone communication.

At stage 2, I lodged amendments designed to give effect to the stated recommendations of the majority of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee members, but unfortunately the committee chose to vote down those amendments by five votes to one—so much for the independence of our committees.

Today, I again move amendments designed to ensure that communication by email, by telephone and in writing will be considered to be lobbying. Without those amendments, the bill becomes a sham.

Before members press their voting buttons, I ask them to consider this. We have all been lobbied about the bill. We have been lobbied by a range of organisations that have different viewpoints. How many of the organisations that lobbied us spoke to us face to face and how many sent emails? I think that we know the answer to that. We also know the power of electronic and written communication. To omit that from the bill is plain wrong.

I move amendment 12.

14:15  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Lobbying (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have the bill as amended at ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Group 1 is on lobbying: definition. Amendment 1, in the name of Neil Findlay, is the only amendment in the group.
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
The bill is in danger of being undermined from the outset by a lack of definition of what we are talking about when we discuss lobbying. The bill as it stand...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I understand the principle underlying what Mr Findlay is seeking to do. However, I am left somewhat unclear about what the phrase “in a professional capacity...
Neil Findlay Lab
I think that the definition as given is much clearer than the lack of definition that we have at the moment. Does the member not agree?
Stewart Stevenson SNP
Of course I do not agree. The definition carries with it the significant danger that, by putting things such as “in a professional capacity” in the amendment...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Stewart Stevenson SNP
I think that I will not. We need to make progress.
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
In defence of Neil Findlay’s amendment, it seems reasonable to include a definition of lobbying on the face of the bill. The argument that we have just heard...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Joe FitzPatrick) SNP
As Neil Findlay described, the aim of amendment 1 is to set out in the bill a definition of what lobbying is before the bill moves on to define the scope of ...
Neil Findlay Lab
As we go through the afternoon Mr FitzPatrick might care to reflect on the words “confusion” and “ambiguity”, because as we go through the bill that is what ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
The Parliament is not agreed and there will be a division. As it is the first division of the stage, I suspend the meeting for five minutes. 14:06 Meeting s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We move to the division on amendment 1. For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
The result of the division is: For 30, Against 75, Abstentions 0. Amendment 1 disagreed to. Section 1—Regulated lobbying
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Group 2 is on regulated lobbying: methods of communication. Amendment 12, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, is grouped with amendments 15, 14 and 23.
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lab
I rise to move amendment 12, speak to amendments 15 and 14, and support George Adam’s amendment 23. The Government bill that the Parliament has before it su...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I lodged amendment 23 on the back of a recent briefing paper from the Law Society of Scotland. The Law Society noted that, although section 1 refers to commu...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
Patricia Ferguson’s quotation from the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee’s stage 1 report was perfectly proper, but it might be as well...
Patrick Harvie Green
I am struggling to resist the temptation to use some of the few signs that I know. I very much welcome George Adam’s amendment 23, as it is important that w...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Patricia Ferguson’s amendments 12, 15 and 14 would substantially broaden the definition of regulated lobbying by including other forms of communication—parti...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Okay, quickly.
Neil Findlay Lab
On the subject of clear evidence, what evidence does the minister have, or has he ever had, that face-to-face communication is more effective than any other ...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I think that there is evidence, which I will come to later. Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Order, please.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I think that the important thing is that we need to make sure that the bill is proportionate, and there is no evidence to—Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Order, please.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
—assert the fact that it would not be a disproportionate burden to extend the definition in the way that Patricia Ferguson’s amendment suggests. I thank Geo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you, minister. I call Patricia Ferguson to wind up and to indicate whether you intend to press or withdraw, please.