Committee
Health and Sport Committee 08 March 2016
08 Mar 2016 · S4 · Health and Sport Committee
Item of business
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Good morning and welcome to the 13th meeting in 2016 of the Health and Sport Committee. I ask everyone in the room to switch off their mobile phones as they can interfere with the sound system and with the proceedings, although some colleagues are using tablet devices instead of hard copies of the papers. The first item on our agenda is day 1 of stage 2 of the Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill. As agreed by the Parliament, this committee will consider amendments to those parts of the bill that primarily relate to the disposal of ashes and the meaning of “cremation”, as well as arrangements for adults and children and for losses during pregnancy. Amendments to the rest of the bill will be considered by the Local Government and Regeneration Committee at its meeting tomorrow. The amendments being considered today start at number 1000. You will be glad to hear that there are not 1,000 amendments, but there are a lot. That numbering is being used to distinguish the amendments that will be considered by this committee from those that will be considered by the Local Government and Regeneration Committee. We will start at section 36 of the bill. I welcome Maureen Watt, Minister for Public Health, Simon Cuthbert-Kerr, the bill team leader, Lindsay Anderson, senior principal legal officer, and David McLeish, parliamentary counsel, all from the Scottish Government. Everyone should have a copy of the bill as introduced, the marshalled list of amendments and the groupings of amendments. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. I will call the member who lodged the first amendment in the group to speak to and move that amendment and to speak to all other amendments in the group. Members who have not lodged amendments in the group but who wish to speak should indicate their wish to speak in the normal way. The debate on the group will be concluded by me by inviting the member who moved the first amendment in the group to wind up. Only committee members are allowed to vote. Voting in any division is by a show of hands. Section 36—Meaning of “cremation”
In the same item of business
The Convener (Duncan McNeil)
Lab
Good morning and welcome to the 13th meeting in 2016 of the Health and Sport Committee. I ask everyone in the room to switch off their mobile phones as they ...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 1001, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendment 1044. I call the minister to move amendment 1001 and to speak to both amendments in th...
The Minister for Public Health (Maureen Watt)
SNP
Amendment 1001 provides greater clarity and certainty about what constitutes a cremation. The effect of the amendment is that cremation is the burning of hum...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
I would like to confirm the meaning. In the original version of the bill, “cremation” means: “the reduction to ashes of human remains ... and the applicatio...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
I agree with Malcolm Chisholm. In evidence, the committee heard that some religious groups do not agree with cremulation but do agree with cremation. The min...
The Convener
Lab
No other member wishes to speak. I therefore call the minister to wind up.
Maureen Watt
SNP
It is precisely because in some cases some religions, particularly Hinduism, do not want the cremulation process to take place that we brought forward the wo...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 1002, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 1003 to 1008.
Maureen Watt
SNP
Amendments 1003 to 1007 place various duties and powers on cremation authorities and funeral directors in relation to how they handle ashes. Amendment 1003...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I have a question for the minister. At the moment, many funeral directors can be left with ashes for quite a long time. Will regulations put in place a time ...
Maureen Watt
SNP
Well—
The Convener
Lab
I will bring in Malcolm Chisholm next. You will have an opportunity to respond when you wind up, minister.
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
I welcome the amount of detail that is being put in the bill. Originally, that detail was to be set out in regulations. I know that we sometimes have debates...
Maureen Watt
SNP
I thank Malcolm Chisholm for his comments. We have listened to the committees involved in scrutinising the bill and what they have said in their stage 1 repo...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 1047, in the name of Malcolm Chisholm, is grouped with amendment 1048.
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
I am sure that everyone who has followed the passage of the bill and indeed the events that preceded it will realise the centrality of the ashes issue. The...
Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
SNP
Will the minister clarify whether an inspector of crematoriums would carry out an inquiry or investigation if no ashes were recovered to ascertain why that w...
Maureen Watt
SNP
Amendment 1047 seeks to expand the enabling power in the bill that would allow ministers to make regulations about applications for cremation. The bill alrea...
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
I thank the minister for those words. In a sense, I lodged my amendments to highlight the issues in question. The fact that, according to the minister, the s...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 1009, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 1010 to 1020, 1030, 1045 and 1046.
Maureen Watt
SNP
Amendments 1009 to 1016 are minor amendments, which seek to remove any reference to “still-birth” or “still-born child” from section 47 of the bill. The remo...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 1021, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 1022 to 1026.
Maureen Watt
SNP
The overall effect of amendments 1022 to 1024 is to amend section 48 so as to require a person who makes a decision about the disposal of a deceased person’s...
The Convener
Lab
Amendment 1027, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 1028, 1029, 1031 to 1036, 1049, 1037, 1050 and 1038 to 1043. I point out that if amen...
Maureen Watt
SNP
The overall effect of this group of amendments is to strengthen the process that a health authority must follow when a woman experiences a pregnancy loss bef...
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
First, I think that the minister has dealt with the matter of my amendment 1050 in her amendment 128, which will be considered tomorrow. I assume that amendm...
Nanette Milne
Con
When I came to the meeting, I could not really distinguish between the two amendments. However, having listened to what has been said by the minister and by ...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP)
SNP
I was not going to comment on which amendment I prefer—the minister’s amendment 1036 or Malcolm Chisholm’s amendment 1049—although I would support the Govern...
Maureen Watt
SNP
We need to remember that amendment 1036 makes it clear that section 54 will apply where the provision in section 50(1) “applies in relation to a woman” and...
The Convener
Lab
I remind members that if amendment 1036 is agreed to, I cannot call amendment 1049. The question is, that amendment 1036 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Membe...