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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 08 March 2016

08 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill

As I said in speaking to my amendments at stage 3, practically every single part of the bill has caused storm and fury. During stage 1, we discussed potential ONS reclassification and concerns about whether the bill provided for too much ministerial control. The cabinet secretary listened to the debate and came back at stage 2 with amendments to remove those elements from the bill. However, the storm and fury continued in relation to other issues in the sector.

I was led to believe in my interactions with the sector itself that it wanted the issues of ministerial control and potential ONS reclassification dealt with at stage 2. When those issues were addressed, that should have enabled us to see a way forward and to work together to progress the bill. However, we ended up in a situation in which other issues continued to arise.

I am first and foremost a back-bench MSP representing my constituency. I went to see Craig Mahoney, the principal of the University of the West of Scotland in my constituency. For the first half-hour of our discussion, we effectively went through the academic argument that has been going on between Universities Scotland and the Government for the past six months. Eventually, however, we talked about how UWS could move forward as a modern institution, how the bill could make a difference and how the university could manage the new structure.

At that point, I believed—I am not putting words into the principal’s mouth—that we had reached a better place than we had been before. What we need to do in considering the bill today is sit back and say, “Right. How will this work practically in the real world rather than here in the chamber?”

During the Education and Culture Committee’s evidence sessions, many positive things were said about our world-renowned university sector. The very spirit of the bill was to ensure democratisation, that the full campus should be represented, and that everyone would work together to make that better. As I said at stage 1, Mary Senior of UCU said:

“No one is questioning that Scottish universities are good—they are good. What we are saying is that they could be so much better if staff, students and trade unions were fully involved in how they operate.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 6 October 2015; c 11.]

That is what the bill is all about; it is its heart and soul. We are giving opportunity to the full community. Little as I like to say it, not every idea that I have is the best in the world. However, when we work as a group, we have others with us who have better ideas. That is the ideology that we are talking about just now. We are modernising institutions and bringing them into the 21st century, which is the most important part of the bill.

We have to be mindful that those organisations are getting £3 billion: £1 billion is from the Scottish Government, £1 billion is from the United Kingdom Government, and research and commercial activities make up the other £1 billion. Two thirds of the universities’ budget comes from the public purse and we have to find a way of accounting for that.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item is a debate on motion S4M-15838, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill. I call the cabinet secr...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Angela Constance) SNP
For the purposes of rule 9.11 of the standing orders, I wish to advise the Parliament that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Higher Edu...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con) Con
The cabinet secretary advocates a raison d’être for her bill, particularly in relation to what she considers to be the role of the chair. Is she aware of the...
Angela Constance SNP
Miss Goldie has raised that issue before at previous debates in Parliament, and that is a point on which I differ from her. I think that a higher education i...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Iain Gray. We are quite tight for time, so Mr Gray has seven minutes. 18:29
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
In all the different stages of the bill, it is important that we recognise that, whatever our views on the merits or demerits of the bill, it is good that we...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
It will be no surprise that we do not support the bill. Not only do we continue to believe that there is absolutely no need for it, given the Scottish Govern...
Annabel Goldie Con
On the issue of the model of governance, as proposed by the bill, I have, in vain, asked the Scottish Government to give me an example of where that model ca...
Liz Smith Con
I am afraid that I cannot help Annabel Goldie, because we have not had an answer to that question. It remains in the mists of time. I really do not understan...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP) SNP
For a relatively modest piece of proposed legislation, the Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill has generated considerable comment. Members of the Edu...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Lab
As we have heard, the passage of the bill has not been a great advert for the Scottish Government’s competence and grasp of educational matters, but then aga...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Our university sector is genuinely world class, but that does not mean that our universities cannot be improved. Adapting to changing needs, expectations and...
Stewart Maxwell SNP
Will the member give way?
Liam McArthur LD
I do not really have time, I am afraid. All the evidence shows that the best-performing universities worldwide are those that exercise the greatest level of...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
As I said in speaking to my amendments at stage 3, practically every single part of the bill has caused storm and fury. During stage 1, we discussed potentia...
Liz Smith Con
Will the member take an intervention?
George Adam SNP
Unfortunately, I have only about 10 seconds left. I believe in the bill; it is a way forward for our higher education institutions. I want to work with them...
Cara Hilton (Dunfermline) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to speak in this evening’s stage 3 debate on the Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill. The bill is by no means perfect, and it would hav...
Liz Smith Con
Given what the member has just said, can she tell me why it took two hours and two minutes for Labour to make its first contribution this afternoon?
Cara Hilton Lab
I confess that I am a wee bit confused by that intervention so I will pass. The bill will give staff, students and trade unions a real voice and a real say ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
We move to the closing speeches. 19:00
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
It has been quite a long day. When the cabinet secretary mentioned Thomas Carlyle, I thought that I would look up one or two quotes on my iPad. He said: “th...
Angela Constance SNP
Will Mrs Scanlon give way?
Mary Scanlon Con
Of course.
Angela Constance SNP
I just wondered whether she had a quote about cheerful women.
Mary Scanlon Con
The cabinet secretary is very knowledgeable about the time that Thomas Carlyle was writing, so she will know that we can assume that what he said applied to ...
Stewart Maxwell SNP
Go on.
Mary Scanlon Con
I would like to, but I just cannot. As we normally do on these occasions, I thank the clerks of the Education and Culture Committee and, in particular, I th...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
As Iain Gray set out at the beginning of the debate, Labour supports the general principles of the bill. The bill has the laudable aims of ensuring that the ...
Angela Constance SNP
I thank members for today’s stage 3 debate and record my thanks to the Education and Culture Committee. Unlike Mary Scanlon, I will not embarrass its convene...