Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 08 March 2016
08 Mar 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
During stage 1 evidence, the cabinet secretary made it clear to the Education and Culture Committee that it was not the Government’s intention, through the bill, to affect the role of the rector at the five institutions where such a role exists. It was always difficult to see how that could be achieved and, sadly, after the amendments that were passed at stage 2 on elected chairs, it is now beyond the cabinet secretary’s ability to honour that commitment. That is a source of regret. However, the priority at this stage must be to provide what clarity we can to the respective roles of rector and senior lay governor.
There is still too much of an overlap and duplication, as Liz Smith said, which is giving rise to the potential for confusion and even conflict. The concern is not confined to Opposition members. Chic Brodie deserves credit for his work in the committee to highlight the problems and, more important, for his efforts to help dig the cabinet secretary out of the hole that she has dug for herself.
The amendments might not entirely address the problem, but that is hardly Mr Brodie’s fault. Rightly, he seeks to properly distinguish the respective roles and ensure that anyone who chairs a governing body has the confidence and support of that body’s members. On that basis, I am happy to confirm our support for amendments 27 and 31.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have the ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Group 1 is on the role of the rector. Amendment 27, in the name of Chic Brodie, is grouped with amendment 31.
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
The bill, which I hope will receive full scrutiny after some years of enactment, has as its base democratic accountability. The purpose of amendments 27 and ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Mr Brodie has outlined today and at stage 2 that there are, at present, clear divisions and clear lines of responsibility between the senior lay governor and...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
During stage 1 evidence, the cabinet secretary made it clear to the Education and Culture Committee that it was not the Government’s intention, through the b...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Angela Constance)
SNP
I thank Mr Brodie for his explanation of amendments 27 and 31. As he set out, amendment 27 would remove the requirement for the universities of Glasgow, Edin...
Liz Smith
Con
The cabinet secretary has said many times that the diversity of the higher education sector is crucial. That is one of the reasons why we have different posi...
Angela Constance
SNP
I am concerned that Mr Brodie’s amendments would confuse the role of rector and that of co-chair and would confuse the role of co-chair and that of senior la...
Chic Brodie
SNP
We have not reached the detailed discussion of the further proposals that are attached to my amendments. If the Government proceeds with its proposal, it wil...
Angela Constance
SNP
With respect, I do not believe that what Mr Brodie proposes would lead to any consistency. What the Government seeks to do in the bill is to reflect the Scot...
Liz Smith
Con
The code of good governance is being reviewed. Would it have been sensible to await the results of that review before proposing the changes in the bill?
Angela Constance
SNP
No. It is important that the code of governance is reviewed as appropriate, but the bill is high level and discrete in its proposition, and I refute the sugg...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
Angela Constance
SNP
Not just now. A key principle of the bill is to enable an approach to governance that is based on greater transparency, accountability and inclusivity to su...
Annabel Goldie
Con
I seem to be one of the few members of this Parliament who have served on a university court. I am listening with care to what the cabinet secretary is sayin...
Angela Constance
SNP
I say with the greatest respect to Ms Goldie that the questions are not unanswered. No one needs to be a member of a university governing body to understand ...
Chic Brodie
SNP
I am even more confused now about what the senior lay member will do vis-à-vis what the rector will do in the ancient universities. Who will speak for the st...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
The question is, that amendment 27 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
There will be a division. As this is the first division, I suspend the meeting for five minutes. 15:33 Meeting suspended. 15:38 On resuming—
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We will now proceed with the division on amendment 27. For Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian)...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
The result of the division is: For 20, Against 91, Abstentions 0. Amendment 27 disagreed to.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Group 2 is on the role of the chairing member and the co-chair. Amendment 28, in the name of Chic Brodie, is grouped with amendments 29, 1, 30 and 40.
Chic Brodie
SNP
All my amendments in the group reflect the proposed roles of the chairing members, which I referred to earlier, and of the co-chairs, and embrace the changes...
Liz Smith
Con
My amendment 1 is a very simple amendment that is intended to make it clear that the list of duties that is set out in section A1(2) is not in any way an exh...
Liam McArthur
LD
My comments on Chic Brodie’s previous amendments apply equally in this instance. I will not repeat myself; we will support the amendments in this group as we...
Angela Constance
SNP
I will deal with amendments 28 to 30 and 40 from Chic Brodie and amendment 1 from Liz Smith. The role of senior lay member of the governing body is central...
Liz Smith
Con
Is it not the case that there is considerable confusion in the bill over the roles of the rector and the chair? That is the reason why we have a considerable...
Angela Constance
SNP
No, we do not have a “considerable problem”. As I have said to Liz Smith and other colleagues, the difference between the role of the rector and that of the ...
Liz Smith
Con
Is it not the case that the 18 higher education institutions have very different structures? The whole point of the bill is to allow them to have that divers...
Angela Constance
SNP
As has been said a few times, the bill acknowledges the diversity of our institutions, which should be valued. However, we want a high level of consistency a...