Committee
European and External Relations Committee 03 March 2016
03 Mar 2016 · S4 · European and External Relations Committee
Item of business
Human Rights
First of all, as far as the armed forces are concerned, some of what has allegedly happened in Iraq raises certain human rights issues with regard to a small number of, if you like, renegade members of our armed forces who have not just undermined human rights but explicitly broken the law of that country and ours. I do not want us to dilute our ability to deal with such cases, because if we are fighting on the principle of fundamental freedoms and liberties, as we were in Iraq and as we are in fighting terrorists, the evils of Islamic State and all the rest of it, we must be able to hold our heads high and say that we would never engage in the sorts of activities that we are fighting against. It is extremely important that we maintain our highest standards of conduct, and that people are accountable, no matter the circumstances in which they are operating. There is no doubt that circumstances in places such as Iraq are very difficult, and our armed forces are doing a fantastic job there. However, one or two rogues have brought down everyone else, and the first people to criticise them are the other members of the armed forces, who share our views on the matter. As for the “glosses”, I am not a lawyer but the issue in law is about balance. Sometimes, an individual case might involve different laws that appear to contradict each other. For example, on the one hand, we have the human right to protect family life, which is absolutely right; on the other hand, we want to extradite certain people who have not lived up to our standards when they have lived in our country. That is where the courts come in; they have to balance those rights and decide whether it is right to allow the extradition or not. Each case is different, and each case has to be considered on its merits. As a politician, I am not going to say whether a judge has got it right or wrong. It is entirely the role of the judiciary to make those decisions, and it should not be interfered with by Government ministers. What are being passed as “glosses” undermine the long-standing traditional role of our courts, which is for judges and juries to strike a balance in any possible conflict between two different aims that are set out in law. It is for them to decide the right thing in each case. “Gloss” is just another word for “Let’s do what we want them to do. Let’s tell the judges what they have to rule” instead of leaving the judges to get on with their job.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Welcome back to the meeting. Item 3 is a continuation—and almost a conclusion—of our human rights inquiry. I welcome to the committee Alex Neil, who is the C...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Communities and Pensioners’ Rights (Alex Neil)
SNP
Absolutely. I will widen things out a wee bit to consider wider human rights issues, if that is okay.
The Convener
SNP
Absolutely. You have had the benefit of having conversations with UK ministers, who decided not to accept our invitation to come to the committee to discuss ...
Alex Neil
SNP
Thank you very much. I congratulate the committee on taking on the inquiry, which is extremely important and timeous, although it would obviously have been ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, cabinet secretary. You took the words out of my mouth for my first question, because I have just seen some of the stuff from the Jimmy Reid Founda...
Alex Neil
SNP
First of all, when we talk about this in the context of the EU referendum, it is very important that we make a clear distinction between the institutional fr...
Anne McTaggart
Lab
I have a few questions. I will start with the devolution settlement. Arguments have been made that the repeal of the Human Rights Act 1998 could have an impa...
Alex Neil
SNP
As I have said, the Scotland Act 1998, which set up the Parliament, had adherence to the principles and provisions of the European convention on human rights...
Anne McTaggart
Lab
Given the different human rights regimes in different parts of the UK, how would that pan out?
Alex Neil
SNP
The vast bulk of the legislation is very similar. In a lot of cases, it is identical. For obvious reasons, Northern Ireland has particular provisions and has...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
From what you said, do I take it that the UK Government, which is compliant with the European convention on human rights, already has a bill of rights?
Alex Neil
SNP
We do not know whether it has a draft ready, Jamie.
Jamie McGrigor
Con
The point that I am making is that you said that the Scotland Act 1998 is compliant with the ECHR, which means that there is a bill of human rights as such. ...
Alex Neil
SNP
There is not a bill of rights as such. We have the Human Rights Act 1998.
Jamie McGrigor
Con
It is not called a bill of rights but the fact that the UK Government is compliant with the ECHR gives the same sort of rights as a bill of rights would.
Alex Neil
SNP
We do not know that because we do not know what the UK Government proposes will be in the bill of rights. Remember that the discussion inside the Tory party ...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
All right.
Roderick Campbell
SNP
Good morning. Mindful of my interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates, I flag up the evidence that was given to the House of Lords EU Justice Sub-comm...
Alex Neil
SNP
That issue has not cropped up in any discussions or correspondence that I have had with UK ministers. I would be very concerned if we were going to give the ...
Roderick Campbell
SNP
Indeed. Thank you. That is a very helpful answer. Obviously, a lot of human rights lawyers and activists and campaigners in the third sector are keen to exte...
Alex Neil
SNP
We are open to consideration of the extension of rights. I will give you an example. When the coalition Government came in during 2010-11, it abolished the s...
Adam Ingram
SNP
Good morning, cabinet secretary. I would like to hear your view of the critique of current human rights legislation that has been promulgated by the Conserva...
Alex Neil
SNP
Our very strong view is that we not only disagree with the UK Government’s analysis but think the opposite. Far from undermining the UK Parliament’s sovereig...
Adam Ingram
SNP
They have fellow travellers in the popular press, including the Daily Mail.
Alex Neil
SNP
Absolutely.
Adam Ingram
SNP
The other issue relates to the House of Lords sub-committee meeting to which Rod Campbell referred and at which Michael Gove emphasised two areas of concern ...
Alex Neil
SNP
First of all, as far as the armed forces are concerned, some of what has allegedly happened in Iraq raises certain human rights issues with regard to a small...
Adam Ingram
SNP
Okay. Thank you. 10:45
The Convener
SNP
Cabinet secretary, we have had a lot of evidence, including some quite detailed evidence from Michael Clancy of the Law Society of Scotland, who is always ve...
Alex Neil
SNP
The first thing is to make a distinction between human rights and human rights legislation. Human rights are universal. They transcend time, geography, ethni...