Committee
European and External Relations Committee 21 January 2016
21 Jan 2016 · S4 · European and External Relations Committee
Item of business
European Union Reform and Referendum
Dáithí O’Ceallaigh
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Throughout the European Union, there is an increasing general dissatisfaction with Brussels. Within all our populations, there is a feeling that the political systems are not dealing with their problems. Look at my country, for example, where opinion polls give the independents between 20 and 30 per cent of the vote in the forthcoming election. There is dissatisfaction with politics and there is, equally, dissatisfaction with Brussels. It is even further away, and people do not understand how it works. If things go wrong, they blame Westminster, Brussels or whoever it might be. That is happening throughout Europe, not only in the UK, Norway and Switzerland. Dissatisfaction is a deep factor. There are anti-politician and anti-establishment feelings out there among people who believe that those bodies are not able to resolve our problems. That is a general point. Let us look at what people in the United Kingdom feel and what the problems are. Let us also presume that the Prime Minister’s request to Brussels is an expression of some of the problems that need to be resolved if the UK is to remain in the European Union. By the way, I think that solutions can be found to all the issues that the PM has raised in his letter, although two or three of them are difficult, including the welfare issue. The question of the relationship between the Euro-ins and the Euro-outs is, in theory, easy to resolve, but putting that down on paper is more difficult. The whole question of sovereignty is a difficulty, too. Sovereignty is tied up with the notion of whether we can look after our own affairs and resolve our own problems. I strongly believe that the independence of my state has been increased rather than reduced by the fact that we have engaged with Brussels. We have been able to look after and advance our interests by being at the table in Brussels. The problem with the Norwegian and Swiss solutions—and even more so with the Turkish solution—is that they are not at the table where decisions are made about the regulations under which they have to operate. Given the experience on my own island, I firmly believe that we are less sovereign but more independent than we were 40 years ago.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
We move swiftly on to our first agenda item, which is the continuation of our inquiry into European Union reform and the EU referendum. Today we are looking ...
Niels Engelschiøn (Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs)
First of all, thank you very much for inviting us to Edinburgh. We are very pleased to be here. It is the first time for me, and it is a great pleasure to se...
Professor Dr Andreas Auer (Universities of Zurich and Geneva)
I, too, thank the committee very much for inviting me to this beautiful city so that I can inform members about the relationship between Switzerland and the ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much indeed. Dáithí, do you want to go next?
Dáithí O’Ceallaigh (Institute of International and European Affairs)
Thank you very much. I join my colleagues in thanking you for inviting me. About a year ago, the Institute of International and European Affairs, which is b...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you very much. I invite questions from members.
Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I should say at the outset that I am not a Eurosceptic. I agree with the idea that the UK should stay in the EU. I find it interesting that, in Norway, some...
The Convener
SNP
Who is that question for?
Jamie McGrigor
Con
It is for the Norwegian witnesses primarily, but it is also for the Swiss representative.
Niels Engelschiøn
It is not entirely correct to say that the political establishment in Norway is pro-EU, because several parties in Parliament are against Norwegian membershi...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
What is putting the population off Norway’s becoming a full member of the EU instead of its being, in a way, a member without having the ability to influence...
Niels Engelschiøn
I have mentioned fisheries, agriculture and the sovereignty issue. There is no precise answer—this is just speculation—but the Norwegian economy and the work...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Is there nothing that you can put your finger on and say, “They don’t like that”?
Niels Engelschiøn
No, it is difficult to say. However, given the difficult economic situation that many European countries—particularly those in the eurozone—have faced since ...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Do you think that Norwegians are particularly against joining the euro?
Niels Engelschiøn
It is about the whole thing. Eighty per cent of Norwegians would say no to EU membership because they know what they have and they do not know what membershi...
The Convener
SNP
Do you want to put the same question to Professor Auer?
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Yes, please. I do not want to hog the discussion, but I would like to hear the Swiss perspective.
Professor Auer
I would never consider the Swiss situation as being a solution for anyone—not even for Switzerland, which is currently in a very difficult position. Let me e...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Thank you.
The Convener
SNP
Dáithí O’Ceallaigh, you have done some analysis of the other models. You mentioned both the Swiss and Norwegian models, but you also mentioned the Turkish mo...
Dáithí O’Ceallaigh
Throughout the European Union, there is an increasing general dissatisfaction with Brussels. Within all our populations, there is a feeling that the politica...
Jamie McGrigor
Con
Was monetary union a bridge too far?
Dáithí O’Ceallaigh
No. The regulation of the monetary union was there without a bridge, because the individual treasuries and finance ministries were not prepared to give up th...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
SNP
I will pick up Mr O’Ceallaigh’s point about the four unions. You said that the Norwegian, Swiss and Turkish models would not lend themselves to being a UK so...
Dáithí O’Ceallaigh
I honestly think that, were the UK negotiating on its own, its position would be much weaker than it would be were the UK to remain negotiating on the inside...
Willie Coffey
SNP
Partially. I would love to ask Professor Auer for his view. Professor, you have already said that the Swiss relationship is not a particularly good one for ...
Professor Auer
I am sorry, but I did not understand the question.
Willie Coffey
SNP
You have said that the arrangement that Switzerland has is not a particularly good one. What relationship do you think that the UK would have with the EU if ...
Professor Auer
I am sorry, but that is a very difficult question for me to answer. I am convinced that, because it is a strong and important country, the UK could negotiate...