Committee
Audit Committee, 13 Feb 2007
13 Feb 2007 · S2 · Audit Committee
Item of business
Teaching Profession
Mr Black:
Watch on SPTV
I have one or two thoughts that might help to inform the committee. There are two points about the general context. First, as I am sure the committee knows, the Education Committee recently took evidence in a round-table discussion on the teachers agreement. The issues that have been mentioned this morning were explored in some detail during that discussion.Secondly, we are committed to return to the teachers agreement and to carry out a further performance audit in about two years' time. That relates to the point about value for money that concerns the committee. We will enter discussions with HMIE about that. We have provided for the report in our forward work programme.I have one or two thoughts on specific points that were made. Robin Harper mentioned, rightly, the mixed set of objectives that must be applied to the teachers agreement. In our report, we mention some of the categories that the department as a whole needs to find ways of analysing and reporting added value on. As I have said on a number of occasions—not least to the Education Committee the other day—Audit Scotland certainly does not subscribe to the view that there is a simple, linear relationship between extra pay for teachers and improved exam results. It is for that reason that we tried to point out, both in our report and to the Education Committee, some of the areas in which the service as a whole should try to obtain some measures.Some members have expressed a general sense of impatience about progress. We thought carefully about producing the report, because it was suggested to us that a report would be rather premature, given that the scheme is relatively new. However, we felt that it was possible to publish an interim report—we chose the title specifically—that would highlight issues for the future. In general, we are encouraged by the positive response from the Education Department that it is addressing the concerns in our report. In particular, positive comments have been made about the commitment to consider the system of performance measures in the round and about outcome agreements in the context of the public service reform agenda.Perhaps the response from the department does not fully cover the challenge that the committee presented on the impact on head teachers of reduced class contact time. The committee asked the department how it would address the unintended consequence of the agreement that head teachers had to spend an increasing number of hours on providing classroom cover. We have not really had a response to that, which is a significant issue for HMIE to follow up and for us to address in our report in a couple of years' time.I invite Antony Clark to paint in any other issues that he thinks are important.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Ind
Under item 3, the committee will consider a response from the Scottish Executive on the committee's seventh report of 2006, on the Auditor General for Scotla...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
In our legacy paper, we should perhaps recommend the introduction of an Audit Committee award for complete gobbledegook that does not mean much to any ordina...
The Convener:
Ind
That is exactly why I drew that sentence to members' attention. Indeed, it might be a worthy candidate for such an award—we could consider that under agenda ...
Mr Welsh:
SNP
I note that the paper is headed "Draft Scottish Executive Response". Is there any particular reason for that? Is it work in progress?Referring to the second ...
The Convener:
Ind
Obviously, I cannot answer the question.
Mr Welsh:
SNP
I am underlining the point that the response was inadequate, as you said. We asked the department for "clear outcome measures". We were told that it looks to...
The Convener:
Ind
Do you have any further points?
Mr Welsh:
SNP
If you do not mind.
The Convener:
Ind
No—carry on. We are all enjoying this.
Mr Welsh:
SNP
We asked"whether improvements in classroom practice claimed as a result of implementing the agreement … are actually being delivered, and … whether value-for...
The Convener:
Ind
To be fair, the point was on a recommendation that we made to the Auditor General for Scotland and not the department. That is why the department's response ...
Mr Welsh:
SNP
I would have thought that the department would have a pretty good idea whether it is delivering value for money. After all, it takes the action, whereas Audi...
Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab):
Lab
There is a problem with the Executive response. To be fair, the problem derives not from the response but from our report. Indeed, the problem can be said to...
Robin Harper:
Green
At this point, I should declare as an interest my continued membership of the Educational Institute of Scotland.The problem with the idea of assessing value ...
The Convener:
Ind
Thank you. After we have heard from Andrew Welsh and Margaret Smith, I will invite the Auditor General to comment.
Mr Welsh:
SNP
Our report contained some fundamental points. Although we said that further actions"might be needed to meet the objectives of the agreement",we made some hig...
The Convener:
Ind
You make a fair point, but I could play devil's advocate and say that it is necessary to take into account the context. Our report was to be followed by a re...
Mr Welsh:
SNP
I fully concede that the context is important, but the problem is that time is passing by. We made some specific, straightforward comments, but I am dissatis...
The Convener:
Ind
In this case, impatience is a virtue.
Margaret Jamieson:
Lab
Andrew Welsh forgets that the agreement exists between the employers, the Scottish Executive and the trade unions. Even though we are held in high esteem, no...
Mr Welsh:
SNP
I note that the Executive states:"We are writing this week to interested stakeholders".I give it due credit for that.
Margaret Jamieson:
Lab
It is the end bit that I am interested in.
Mr Welsh:
SNP
Exactly.
The Convener:
Ind
Auditor General, I would welcome your—or your team's—comments.
Mr Black:
I have one or two thoughts that might help to inform the committee. There are two points about the general context. First, as I am sure the committee knows, ...
Antony Clark (Audit Scotland):
I echo Bob Black's overall statement that the department's response is broadly positive, but the committee may want to ask the department for further informa...
Susan Deacon:
Lab
I will pick up on several strands of what has been said. I suspect that I am in legacy mode again. I was struck by Andrew Welsh's concern that a review was b...
The Convener:
Ind
Following the briefing from the Auditor General and Antony Clark, and comments from Andrew Welsh, Margaret Smith and Susan Deacon, I suggest that I write to ...
The Convener:
Ind
As there are no other points that members want me to pick up on, we will focus on the timetable. I thank members for their comments, which the department wil...