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Committee

Audit Committee, 13 Feb 2007

13 Feb 2007 · S2 · Audit Committee
Item of business
Teaching Profession
Deacon, Susan Lab Edinburgh East and Musselburgh Watch on SPTV
There is a problem with the Executive response. To be fair, the problem derives not from the response but from our report. Indeed, the problem can be said to derive from our consideration of issues such as the McCrone agreement, in which we swing so much from the strategic to the specific that it is difficult to do justice to either. I make that observation from the perspective of having sat on the Audit Committee for a number of years, which are about to come to a close.Certainly, a two-sentence response in a box—which is the format of the response that we are considering today—limits the extent to which one can do justice to the wider strategic issues. That said, over the longer term, the Audit Committee should add greater value to some of the strategic stuff. In that regard, I will share three observations on the issue that is before us—I suppose that they offer a past-present-future dimension.As far as the past is concerned, I found it interesting to observe the media coverage and associated discussion that were generated by the publication of both our report and the report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Education on the implementation of the McCrone agreement. In other words, I am interested in the whole debate, umpteen years on, about what the McCrone agreement was and was not meant to do and what it has and has not done. For me, the coverage and discussion reinforced how much these things can get lost in the fog of the past. Some of this is partly about the Executive being better at stating outcomes, but some of it is also about the public policy process at the time being better at capturing—and making clear to the public—what is and what is not intended by major investments such as the McCrone agreement.As far as the present is concerned, I am conscious that this is another example of where we—I say "we" deliberately, because I am talking not just about the Executive—have to be conscious of the fact that, when we look at these issues, we do so with blinkers on. Andrew Welsh mentioned resources for McCrone, but we need also to consider issues that have come along since McCrone, such as single status. Such issues have created other huge demands that are impacting on budgets in a number of parts of the country. We need to update our thinking to take account of other developments that come along and their impact on resources.That takes me on to my third point, which is on the future. Although all the analysis of the McCrone agreement has been useful—for me, it has also been interesting. I hope that others think that it has been informative—there is now a need for us to move on. In doing so, we need to contextualise the issue as part of a wider discussion on what we want to achieve in our schools and classrooms in future. In other words, the McCrone agreement is done and has been analysed. Importantly, there is a need to update our thinking and to do so consciously. If we do not, we will keep looking at things through a prism that is five or six years old. That is a long way of saying that we should note the response, although some interesting and wider points can be drawn from it. Perhaps our legacy paper is the right place for some of the points that I have raised.

In the same item of business

The Convener: Ind
Under item 3, the committee will consider a response from the Scottish Executive on the committee's seventh report of 2006, on the Auditor General for Scotla...
Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
In our legacy paper, we should perhaps recommend the introduction of an Audit Committee award for complete gobbledegook that does not mean much to any ordina...
The Convener: Ind
That is exactly why I drew that sentence to members' attention. Indeed, it might be a worthy candidate for such an award—we could consider that under agenda ...
Mr Welsh: SNP
I note that the paper is headed "Draft Scottish Executive Response". Is there any particular reason for that? Is it work in progress?Referring to the second ...
The Convener: Ind
Obviously, I cannot answer the question.
Mr Welsh: SNP
I am underlining the point that the response was inadequate, as you said. We asked the department for "clear outcome measures". We were told that it looks to...
The Convener: Ind
Do you have any further points?
Mr Welsh: SNP
If you do not mind.
The Convener: Ind
No—carry on. We are all enjoying this.
Mr Welsh: SNP
We asked"whether improvements in classroom practice claimed as a result of implementing the agreement … are actually being delivered, and … whether value-for...
The Convener: Ind
To be fair, the point was on a recommendation that we made to the Auditor General for Scotland and not the department. That is why the department's response ...
Mr Welsh: SNP
I would have thought that the department would have a pretty good idea whether it is delivering value for money. After all, it takes the action, whereas Audi...
Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab): Lab
There is a problem with the Executive response. To be fair, the problem derives not from the response but from our report. Indeed, the problem can be said to...
Robin Harper: Green
At this point, I should declare as an interest my continued membership of the Educational Institute of Scotland.The problem with the idea of assessing value ...
The Convener: Ind
Thank you. After we have heard from Andrew Welsh and Margaret Smith, I will invite the Auditor General to comment.
Mr Welsh: SNP
Our report contained some fundamental points. Although we said that further actions"might be needed to meet the objectives of the agreement",we made some hig...
The Convener: Ind
You make a fair point, but I could play devil's advocate and say that it is necessary to take into account the context. Our report was to be followed by a re...
Mr Welsh: SNP
I fully concede that the context is important, but the problem is that time is passing by. We made some specific, straightforward comments, but I am dissatis...
The Convener: Ind
In this case, impatience is a virtue.
Margaret Jamieson: Lab
Andrew Welsh forgets that the agreement exists between the employers, the Scottish Executive and the trade unions. Even though we are held in high esteem, no...
Mr Welsh: SNP
I note that the Executive states:"We are writing this week to interested stakeholders".I give it due credit for that.
Margaret Jamieson: Lab
It is the end bit that I am interested in.
Mr Welsh: SNP
Exactly.
The Convener: Ind
Auditor General, I would welcome your—or your team's—comments.
Mr Black:
I have one or two thoughts that might help to inform the committee. There are two points about the general context. First, as I am sure the committee knows, ...
Antony Clark (Audit Scotland):
I echo Bob Black's overall statement that the department's response is broadly positive, but the committee may want to ask the department for further informa...
Susan Deacon: Lab
I will pick up on several strands of what has been said. I suspect that I am in legacy mode again. I was struck by Andrew Welsh's concern that a review was b...
The Convener: Ind
Following the briefing from the Auditor General and Antony Clark, and comments from Andrew Welsh, Margaret Smith and Susan Deacon, I suggest that I write to ...
The Convener: Ind
As there are no other points that members want me to pick up on, we will focus on the timetable. I thank members for their comments, which the department wil...