Hansard

The Convener Lab

Agenda item 2 is consideration of an affirmative instrument. As is usual with affirmative instruments, we will have an evidence-taking session with the minis...

The Minister for Sport, Health Improvement and Mental Health (Jamie Hepburn) SNP

It will be a short statement, convener. Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words about the draft order, which amends the Scottish Public Services Om...

The Convener Lab

Thank you, minister. We move to questions from members.

Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab

People are interested in the accountability arrangements for integration joint boards. Before anyone had recourse to the ombudsman, they would have to exhaus...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

We need to be distinct about what we are talking about. As the exercise of functions on the ground and front-line services are already covered by existing co...

Malcolm Chisholm Lab

Most people are more likely to make a complaint about the delivery of a service rather than the way in which it has been planned. Are you saying that, as far...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

In essence, those arrangements are already in place. The order relates more to how the planning of integrated functions is delivered.

Malcolm Chisholm Lab

That is quite an interesting answer, but I think that it will probably add to people’s confusion about the accountability arrangements. At a meeting that I h...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

That is about the delivery of the actual function. If there is an issue around the planning of integrated services, the integration joint board will be accou...

Brian Nisbet (Scottish Government)

That is the case in relation to the planning and strategic commissioning for which the IJBs are responsible. Adding them to the 2002 act will allow complaint...

Malcolm Chisholm Lab

That is interesting. Thank you.

Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con

What about services provided by, for example, the third or voluntary sectors? How would complaints against them work?

Jamie Hepburn SNP

Again, I suspect that that will come down to who has commissioned the services and who has ultimate responsibility for them. The commissioning body would be ...

The Convener Lab

We are simple souls here, so I do not think that we expected any controversy on this issue. However, it would be helpful if Brian Nisbet, Clare McKinlay or y...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

Like you, convener, I do not view this as a controversial matter. In fact, it is quite straightforward, given that through the Public Bodies (Joint Working) ...

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab

I, too, seek some clarity. If a person had a complaint about a function carried out by the joint board on behalf of, say, local government—it could be about ...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

I do not believe that they would have to complain to both. Obviously, the situation is a hypothetical one, but I suspect that you are referring to front-line...

Rhoda Grant Lab

It would not be the joint board’s responsibility.

Jamie Hepburn SNP

Not unless the complaint was about the planning or commissioning of services. Brian Nisbet can clarify the position, if needs be. Do you have anything to add...

Brian Nisbet

Rhoda Grant makes an interesting point. The central point is that any complaint, whether it be about service delivery or planning, must be dealt with appropr...

Rhoda Grant Lab

So the complaint would go through the employer. It might not be about a member of staff; it might be about the way in which a service is provided. In that ca...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

Putting it in the simplest way, Ms Grant, I think that if you sought to assist a constituent with a complaint that might ultimately go to the ombudsman and w...

Rhoda Grant Lab

But who would I write to?

The Convener Lab

Mike MacKenzie wants to ask a question.

Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP

I want to tease out a bit of clarification in an effort to be helpful. Am I correct in assuming that if I, acting on a constituent’s behalf, were to write to...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

You are being helpful, Mr MacKenzie; indeed, if I can say so, you always try to be helpful. In essence, what you say is the case. We have issued guidance on...

The Convener Lab

We do not want things to be complicated, but I think that they might be getting that way.

Malcolm Chisholm Lab

This has been a really interesting discussion but to be honest, minister, I am surprised by what you have said. My understanding was that we were getting bey...

Jamie Hepburn SNP

We are talking about two separate things: on the one hand, you are talking about delivery while, on the other, we are talking about a complaints function. Ou...

Malcolm Chisholm Lab

That is interesting, because your approach throws a new light on the whole issue of accountability. It is almost as if you will still be able to market whate...