Committee
Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee 27 January 2016
27 Jan 2016 · S4 · Rural Affairs, Climate Change and Environment Committee
Item of business
Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
In drawing up the guidance, ministers will consult a wide range of stakeholders, and the guidance will define the different sorts of engagement that will be appropriate in different circumstances. When making decisions about land, landowners will usually take account of a number of considerations, such as adherence to statutory and legal requirements and profitability. The aim of the part 4 guidance is to help foster that spirit of co-operation between landowners and communities, so that communities are properly engaged in decisions that affect them. We expect landowners to take account of the views of communities as part of their considerations. Amendment 13 would make the guidance focus on seeking the agreement of communities. Although ministers recognise that seeking a consensus between landowners and communities is desirable, there will be instances when, following consultation, their respective views differ. That is a legitimate consequence of open engagement. In addition, the members of the community itself may not reach a unanimous view. Amendment 13 might also prevent ministers from including in the guidance useful material that is not about seeking agreement. In effect, the amendment could lead to a heavier burden of engagement for landowners than currently exists for public authorities for many purposes. In turn, that would act as a disincentive to open, discursive engagement. At this point, it is more important that we create a culture of co-operation, which is what part 4 seeks to achieve. In response to Sarah Boyack’s comment I say that the extent of the guidance will be developed in close working partnership with a range of relevant stakeholders. We do not want to pre-empt that process at this early stage. I recognise the good intentions behind amendment 13, but I cannot support it. I move on to amendments 37 and 38. The Scottish Government places a high priority on furthering equalities and the protection of human rights. Amendment 37 will require the Scottish ministers, when preparing the part 4 guidance, to have regard to the desirability of “promoting respect for, and observance of, relevant human rights, ... encouraging equal opportunities” and “furthering the reduction of inequalities of outcome which result from socio-economic disadvantage”. 11:15 As I said at last week’s meeting, an example of “relevant human rights” might be the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Consideration of article 11 of the international covenant, on the right to adequate housing, might mean that in drawing up guidance ministers would give particular consideration to the need for community engagement in decisions that related to housing. Ministers might also consider article 6, on the right to work, when making decisions that might affect employment in the local area. The reference to “encouraging equal opportunities ... within the meaning of section L2 in part 2 of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998” will ensure that in preparing the guidance ministers consider equalities issues, including sex discrimination, race relations and disabilities, as well as the need to further reduce the inequalities of outcome that result from socioeconomic disadvantage. Amendment 38 defines “relevant human rights” as “such human rights as the Scottish Ministers consider to be relevant to the preparation of the guidance.” That will ensure that the Scottish ministers consider human rights treaties or legislation relevant to the preparation of the guidance. Together, amendments 37 and 38 will require the Scottish ministers to take a progressive approach to human rights and equalities when preparing the guidance. Given that I have lodged amendments 37 and 38, which will require ministers to have regard for the desirability of “promoting respect for, and observance of, relevant human rights, ... encouraging equal opportunities” and “furthering the reduction of inequalities of outcome which result from socio-economic disadvantage”, when they prepare the part 4 guidance, I ask Mr Russell not to move amendment 81. I have indicated that I am content, in principle, to accept amendments 97 and 97A, which relate to the definition of “human rights”. We will consider whether further change to part 4 is required at stage 3 in light of that. I understand that amendment 108 was lodged as a result of concern that the guidance will exclude altogether certain types of person with control over land, such as charitable or agricultural landowners. That is not the intention. I am happy to confirm on the record that the intention is that the guidance will apply to all persons with control over land. However, in producing the guidance it will be necessary to allow for flexibility in order to recognise that, in different circumstances, different groups of persons with control over land might be required to engage. For example, there might be circumstances in which a landowner and a tenant have control over different types of decision on the same piece of land. For some decisions, it will be appropriate for the landowner to carry out the community engagement; in other circumstances it might be more appropriate for the tenant to carry out the community engagement. Amendment 108 risks losing that flexibility, and I ask Sarah Boyack to consider not moving it. On amendment 39, we welcome the Parliament’s continued interest and involvement in the implementation of the bill after it has been passed. Amendment 39 will require the Scottish ministers to lay before the Parliament the first part 4 guidance, which will give the Parliament the opportunity to consider the guidance as it sees fit, in accordance with the standing orders. We do not think it appropriate for the Scottish ministers to impose on the Parliament’s work programme. However, the first guidance will be required to be laid before the Parliament and it will be for the Parliament, not ministers, to decide whether to debate it.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Agenda item 7 is the second day of consideration of amendments to the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill. We will pick up where we left off last week with part 3 of...
The Convener
SNP
We come to the group on the power of the keeper of the Registers of Scotland to request information and the procedure for regulation. Amendment 31, in the na...
The Minister for Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform (Aileen McLeod)
SNP
Section 36 inserts into the Land Registration etc (Scotland) Act 2012 new section 48A, which enables regulations to be made enabling the keeper of the Regist...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 36, in the name of Graeme Dey, has already been debated with amendment 103. I ask Graeme Dey whether he wishes to move his amendment.
Graeme Dey
SNP
My amendment would have deleted section 36, but given that we have just approved a series of amendments to section 36 and that the Scottish Government intend...
The Convener
SNP
We move to group 2, on guidance on engaging communities in decisions relating to land: purpose of engagement, content of guidance etc. Amendment 13, in the n...
Sarah Boyack
Lab
It is clear that new opportunities will flow from the guidance that is envisaged for this part of the bill, and it is to be hoped that owners and communities...
The Convener
SNP
Pardon me—
Sarah Boyack
Lab
Sorry, have I got that wrong? It is amendment 108. I am speaking about the guidance on engaging communities in decisions, as set out in the briefing paper th...
The Convener
SNP
That is okay, but you said amendment 102.
Sarah Boyack
Lab
Sorry—I meant amendment 108. From the earlier discussion members will have been able to tell that my voice is going, but clearly it must be more than that. T...
Aileen McLeod
SNP
In drawing up the guidance, ministers will consult a wide range of stakeholders, and the guidance will define the different sorts of engagement that will be ...
Michael Russell
SNP
I heard what the minister said and I am broadly content with amendment 37—with a caveat, as she will expect, about the term “relevant human rights” in propos...
Graeme Dey
SNP
I welcome the clarity that the minister provided on amendment 108 because at first glance it seemed to have merit, but I am content with what I have heard.
Alex Fergusson
Con
I am sorry to take away from the air of consensus that there seems to be here, but I have concerns about this group of amendments. I share the minister’s res...
The Convener
SNP
I ask the minister to respond to that point before Sarah Boyack winds up.
Aileen McLeod
SNP
Do you want me to comment on some of the other points that have been raised or just specifically Mr Fergusson’s point?
The Convener
SNP
Will you comment on Alex Fergusson’s point?
Aileen McLeod
SNP
I say to Mr Fergusson that the things that we are adding do not move away from the intention of what we are trying to do in part 5 of the bill to further sus...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you for that, minister. I ask Sarah Boyack to wind up and say whether she wishes to press or withdraw amendment 13.
Sarah Boyack
Lab
We have had a useful debate. To be clear, amendment 13 seeks the community’s agreement; it does not say that that must be secured—that would be a higher bar ...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 13 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Against Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Fergusson, ...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0. Amendment 13 disagreed to. Amendment 37 moved—Aileen McLeod.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 37 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithn...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 8, Against 1, Abstentions 0. Amendment 37 agreed to. Amendment 81 not moved. Amendment 38 moved—Aileen McLeod.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 38 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithn...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 8, Against 1, Abstentions 0. Amendment 38 agreed to. Amendment 108 not moved. Amendment 39 moved—Aileen McLeod—and agre...