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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 08 December 2015

08 Dec 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill

The final words of the introductory music to the Scandinavian crime noir, “The Bridge”, which is currently showing on BBC Four, are:

“everything goes back to the beginning.”

If we go back to the beginning of this process, we find a bill that sought to build on the Carloway report. Part 1 of the bill tackles the somewhat confusing statutory issues of detention and arrest, and Lord Carloway sought to create a modern approach to powers of arrest that initially confused the members of the Justice Committee. However, we finally got to grips with it, and that part of the bill now contains important provisions for suspects to have a right to legal advice at police stations. Rather importantly, it will also provide for the removal of legal aid contributions for that advice.

We touched earlier on issues relating to the length of time for which suspects can be held for questioning. We have indeed gone further than Lord Carloway recommended in his report. In our committee there were differing views, but in my view the position that we have now agreed strikes a reasonable balance. I say to Alison McInnes that I hope that the use of the powers to extend beyond 12 hours interrogation in the investigation of crimes involving children will indeed be very limited. Investigative liberation was recommended by Lord Carloway. It is a somewhat ungainly term for a new system of continuing an investigation. I suspect that it will quickly come to be used and the 28-day maximum period seems to be a reasonable balance.

Issues in relation to child and other vulnerable suspects occupied the committee for quite some time. There were understandable concerns about a proper balance between the right to investigate crime and the rights of children and vulnerable people. Whatever else, we must hope that the safeguards that are provided by the legislation are properly adhered to. While child impact assessments were a controversial amendment at stage 2, I am glad to hear that discussions between the Government, Mary Fee and children’s organisations have borne fruit and we were able to agree the amendments earlier this afternoon.

No discussion of the bill would be complete without referring to the C-word: corroboration. Lord Carloway’s initial recommendation to abolish the requirement for corroboration was and remains controversial. It evoked strong emotions from the committee members, in the chamber and throughout civic Scotland. The problem remains as to how to create a system that balances the rights of the accused with the victim’s rights and access to justice. That conundrum will remain for the new parliamentary session and we await the results of the further work that was carried out following Lord Bonomy’s recommendations. In particular, what will the results of jury research reveal? Will it impact on the views on jury majorities, for example? We are, however, embarking on the publication of a prosecutorial test and a code of practice in connection with the identification and interviewing of suspects.

The current cabinet secretary responded quickly to concerns about consensual stop and search. We were perhaps slow to follow the example of our southern neighbours in putting these matters on a formal basis, but they operate it in a slightly different culture. I am also mindful of the former First Minister’s earlier comments about knife crime. I do not quite understand the current position with regard to section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, under which, when there is a reasonable belief that persons are carrying dangerous instruments or offensive weapons, the police can organise a search. That is to be covered by the code of practice; we await that with interest.

We also debated provisions for children’s possession of alcohol and consensual searching. Now that the Parliament has voted on that, we need to move on and accept the cabinet secretary’s assurances. We should also remember that the bill contains recommendations on sheriff and jury cases from Sheriff Bowen. They might be dry but they are nevertheless important.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15087, in the name of Michael Matheson, on the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill.
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Given that the consideration of amendments has finished a lot sooner than expected, I wonder whether there is a possi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you. That matter is being considered and members will be advised in due course. Members who wish to speak in the debate should press their request-to-...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Michael Matheson) SNP
I am delighted to open the stage 3 debate on the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill. As members are aware, the bill has had a unique passage through Parliament...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
As a member of the Justice Committee, I think that the abolition of the absolute requirement for corroboration had a place in the bill and I am sorry that it...
Michael Matheson SNP
I recognise Christian Allard’s particular interest in the matter. It is not the first time that he has expressed concern about the removal of the corroborati...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I am sure that the cabinet secretary would accept that most crimes are committed in private and that it would be impossible to select certain categories of c...
Michael Matheson SNP
I am not disputing that point; I recognise the point that the member makes. I understand that many members who opposed the reform of corroboration did not d...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
As we have heard, the bill was introduced almost two and a half years ago, in June 2013. It has gone through a number of transformations in that period. It w...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
This stage 3 debate on the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill presents the final opportunity to thank the many witnesses and stakeholders whose contributions h...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
The final words of the introductory music to the Scandinavian crime noir, “The Bridge”, which is currently showing on BBC Four, are: “everything goes back t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
You should draw to a close please.
Roderick Campbell SNP
I will leave the question of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission and the interests of justice to my colleague Christine Grahame. This important bi...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am delighted to be able to take part in the stage 3 debate on the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill. I reiterate my thanks to Barnardo’s Scotland for its su...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill is a wide-ranging and substantial bill. We need only to read its purposes to determine that. As others have said, it has...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
What a difference a couple of years makes. No other Government bill has taken this long to get through Parliament and no bill has undergone such a dramatic a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Could you draw to a close, please?
Alison McInnes LD
Nevertheless, the Scottish Liberal Democrats will support the bill at decision time. We are proud to have been pivotal to the bill’s success by ensuring that...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you. I ask that our next two members keep to their four minutes, please. I call Alex Salmond. 18:11
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to contribute, not least to defend Kenny MacAskill, who was a fine justice secretary. I say not just to Alison McInnes but to the w...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I remind members that they should not turn their backs to the chair. 18:15
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
Section 1 of the bill is about the power of a constable and section 2 is about exercise of that power, which has been a key part of what we have discussed in...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that members have gone slightly over the time that has been allocated for the debate, so I would appreciate it if closing speakers could keep to ...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
The bill has indeed—to quote the justice secretary—“had a unique passage”. One point that is worth making at the outset is that, despite a number of controve...
Elaine Murray Lab
I assume that decision time will be brought forward. That is pleasing because after two or more years of considering the bill, I think that I might be runnin...
Michael Matheson SNP
I listened with interest to all the comments that were made and views that were expressed during the debate. I am conscious that a number of members who spok...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
I promise you that I did not touch the switch for your microphone.
Michael Matheson SNP
Okay—I believe you, of course. Alex Salmond raised the issue of tackling the knife culture. There is no doubt that there has been a massive reduction in kni...