Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 20 January 2016
20 Jan 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fire and Rescue Services
I begin by saying that I whole-heartedly agree with the praise for the men and women of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service that we have heard in this afternoon’s speeches from all members. I know that there will be differences of opinion, which I will cover in the rest of the debate, but I welcome the strong and heartfelt support across the chamber for the hard-working and brave men and women of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service.
Members will be aware that reform of Scotland’s fire and rescue services was proposed by this Government. Parliament agreed the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill back in June 2012, a position that was supported by the Labour Party. I do not make that point to cause rancour in the chamber, but I think that it is important in the context of the VAT issue. All of us in the chamber knew that VAT would be an issue, and yet other parties—although not necessarily all parties—supported the bill. I mean that just as a factual point.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott)
Con
The final item of business today is a members’ business debate on motion S4M-15036, in the name of David Stewart, on protecting front-line fire and rescue se...
David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Lab
First, I thank all the members who have stayed behind this evening to support the debate and those who have signed my motion. To those who have not signed it...
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
David Stewart
Lab
I am in my last minute, but if you allow it, Presiding Officer, I will take the intervention.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Of course, in the circumstances.
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
I am very grateful to Mr Stewart for taking an intervention at this late stage. I just want to ask him whether he recognises that the Labour Party supported ...
David Stewart
Lab
That point is not in dispute; the point is to get the VAT right. My colleague Rhoda Grant wrote to the Treasury, and a Treasury official responded: “In 2011...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
We now move to the open debate, with speeches of four minutes. 17:17
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I begin by acknowledging that the Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs was not in his post at the time when much of the arrangements for the refor...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
First, I think that Mr Stewart said the figure was 350, rather the 400 that the member referred to, but I do not know whether I have got that right. On the ...
Graeme Pearson
Lab
I do not enjoy the notion of blaming. The point is who is responsible, and the person who is responsible—or, rather, the entity that is responsible—is very f...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I did not sign the motion and I am not repenting. I do not consider myself a sinner, for several reasons. The first reason is that David Stewart said that th...
Graeme Pearson
Lab
Would the member give way?
Christian Allard
SNP
Yes, if the member will wait one second. The Labour motion of Mr Stewart refers to 300 fewer firefighters. The fire chief said that we could have 350 firefig...
Graeme Pearson
Lab
The shortfall in the number of firefighters that we are talking about here depends on the date that one measures the various establishments. Would the member...
Christian Allard
SNP
Now I am going to come to David Stewart. He tells us to repent because we are sinners. Then he tells us that one of the reasons is the VAT issue. I have the ...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
First of all, Presiding Officer, I must apologise to you and the minister, because I am due at a meeting of the cross-party group on violence against women a...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I congratulate David Stewart on securing the debate. I am not going to argue about the figures, which I was not entirely sure about. I supported the motion i...
Christian Allard
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Mary Scanlon
Con
No, I will not. I suggest to Christian Allard that he read the Audit Scotland report on the issue, the figures in which have been acknowledged by the Scotti...
Mary Scanlon
Con
I will give way briefly.
Christian Allard
SNP
Mary Scanlon is very nice to take an intervention. She said that she signed Mr Stewart’s motion. If the VAT issue had been included in the motion, would she ...
Mary Scanlon
Con
The VAT issue was well known before the police forces merged and before the fire and rescue services merged. I gave my explanation on the number of firefight...
Lesley Brennan (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I just want to make a couple of points. It is good that Dave Stewart was able to secure the debate. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is facing huge budge...
Christian Allard
SNP
I congratulate the member on participating in a second debate on the same day as she made her maiden speech. She has just congratulated Mary Scanlon. I am a ...
Lesley Brennan
Lab
I was reiterating what Mary Scanlon had said about the Audit Scotland report; I was not even discussing VAT. The main issue is the £43 million-worth of cuts,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Con
Thank you; well done. I call on Paul Wheelhouse to wind up the debate. Minister, you have seven minutes or thereby. 17:39
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse)
SNP
I begin by saying that I whole-heartedly agree with the praise for the men and women of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service that we have heard in this after...
Mary Scanlon
Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
I will, briefly.