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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 20 January 2016

20 Jan 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fire and Rescue Services
Scanlon, Mary Con Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

The VAT issue was well known before the police forces merged and before the fire and rescue services merged. I gave my explanation on the number of firefighters, which Mr Allard was arguing about. I have no more to say on that. However, I think that it is appropriate that we are addressing the issue of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service’s budget.

The Public Audit Committee, of which I am a member, has looked at the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, which is trying to make substantial savings. The key message in Audit Scotland’s report of May last year was that the service did not have a long-term financial strategy—such a strategy is urgently required—and that there was a potential funding gap of £42.7 million. We should forget the VAT issue, be realistic and look at the state that the service is in.

Given that, last year, staff costs amounted to 79 per cent of the service’s budgeted gross expenditure, it is understandable that the FBU, staff and the SFRS are concerned about the fact that the service is having to consider more serious front-line cuts in order to address the significant funding gap. Between 2012 and 2020, there will be a 31 per cent real-terms fall in the budget. Who is responsible for that? Mr Allard should know. Net savings of £328 million are expected by 2027. That is all in the Audit Scotland report.

When the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service’s chair and chief officer came before the Public Audit Committee, I spoke about retained firefighters. David Stewart will understand that we have a higher number of retained and voluntary firefighters in the Highlands than anywhere else in Scotland. In the Inverness area alone, vacancies of more than 30 per cent were highlighted at the time.

Retained firefighters’ wages and conditions of service were set up in the 1950s. Given that people must give a commitment of 90 to 120 hours, Pat Watters and Alasdair Hay promised that they would review the position and come back to the Public Audit Committee by November 2015. We are still waiting. I see the minister indicating that that has been done. I certainly have not heard that and I was the one who asked about the matter, but the review is an opportunity for the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to look forward.

Now that I have criticised Pat Watters and Alasdair Hay, I will commend them for taking initiatives such as the one with Highlands and Islands Airports, whereby firefighters at the airports are qualifying to work as retained duty system firefighters. Another success is in Lochinver, where the station had significant problems in maintaining crew numbers. After extensive local consultation, 12 potential new entrants came forward.

It would take too long to look at all the vacancies throughout the Highlands, but if that exercise can be done in Lochinver, it can also be done in places such as Bettyhill, Bonar Bridge, Buchie, Cannich, Forres, Grantown and many others that have between five and 10 vacancies. That is becoming a serious level.

As we approach the single Scottish Fire and Rescue Service’s third anniversary, I put on record my respect and admiration for every person at the front line and every member of staff. They must be commended for their recent wonderful and fabulous work, which was carried out sensitively, throughout areas of Scotland that were affected by flooding.

17:37  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The final item of business today is a members’ business debate on motion S4M-15036, in the name of David Stewart, on protecting front-line fire and rescue se...
David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
First, I thank all the members who have stayed behind this evening to support the debate and those who have signed my motion. To those who have not signed it...
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
David Stewart Lab
I am in my last minute, but if you allow it, Presiding Officer, I will take the intervention.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Of course, in the circumstances.
Paul Wheelhouse SNP
I am very grateful to Mr Stewart for taking an intervention at this late stage. I just want to ask him whether he recognises that the Labour Party supported ...
David Stewart Lab
That point is not in dispute; the point is to get the VAT right. My colleague Rhoda Grant wrote to the Treasury, and a Treasury official responded: “In 2011...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
We now move to the open debate, with speeches of four minutes. 17:17
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I begin by acknowledging that the Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs was not in his post at the time when much of the arrangements for the refor...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
First, I think that Mr Stewart said the figure was 350, rather the 400 that the member referred to, but I do not know whether I have got that right. On the ...
Graeme Pearson Lab
I do not enjoy the notion of blaming. The point is who is responsible, and the person who is responsible—or, rather, the entity that is responsible—is very f...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I did not sign the motion and I am not repenting. I do not consider myself a sinner, for several reasons. The first reason is that David Stewart said that th...
Graeme Pearson Lab
Would the member give way?
Christian Allard SNP
Yes, if the member will wait one second. The Labour motion of Mr Stewart refers to 300 fewer firefighters. The fire chief said that we could have 350 firefig...
Graeme Pearson Lab
The shortfall in the number of firefighters that we are talking about here depends on the date that one measures the various establishments. Would the member...
Christian Allard SNP
Now I am going to come to David Stewart. He tells us to repent because we are sinners. Then he tells us that one of the reasons is the VAT issue. I have the ...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
First of all, Presiding Officer, I must apologise to you and the minister, because I am due at a meeting of the cross-party group on violence against women a...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Con
I congratulate David Stewart on securing the debate. I am not going to argue about the figures, which I was not entirely sure about. I supported the motion i...
Christian Allard SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Mary Scanlon Con
No, I will not. I suggest to Christian Allard that he read the Audit Scotland report on the issue, the figures in which have been acknowledged by the Scotti...
Mary Scanlon Con
I will give way briefly.
Christian Allard SNP
Mary Scanlon is very nice to take an intervention. She said that she signed Mr Stewart’s motion. If the VAT issue had been included in the motion, would she ...
Mary Scanlon Con
The VAT issue was well known before the police forces merged and before the fire and rescue services merged. I gave my explanation on the number of firefight...
Lesley Brennan (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I just want to make a couple of points. It is good that Dave Stewart was able to secure the debate. The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service is facing huge budge...
Christian Allard SNP
I congratulate the member on participating in a second debate on the same day as she made her maiden speech. She has just congratulated Mary Scanlon. I am a ...
Lesley Brennan Lab
I was reiterating what Mary Scanlon had said about the Audit Scotland report; I was not even discussing VAT. The main issue is the £43 million-worth of cuts,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
Thank you; well done. I call on Paul Wheelhouse to wind up the debate. Minister, you have seven minutes or thereby. 17:39
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse) SNP
I begin by saying that I whole-heartedly agree with the praise for the men and women of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service that we have heard in this after...
Mary Scanlon Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Paul Wheelhouse SNP
I will, briefly.