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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 14 January 2016

14 Jan 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill: Stage 1

The minister would have been better to stay away from that example, because it contradicts what he said in his opening speech and what the Deputy First Minister said to us. We were told by the Deputy First Minister that changes to the forecasts would be publicly available, but that simply is not true. There was a dispute last year, but we do not know what the initial forecast for non-domestic rates was and, a year later, we do not know the magnitude of the change as a consequence of that disagreement; we were presented only with the final forecast. So, the minister’s own words make it clear that the changes to the forecasts are not made publicly available. Again, that is one of our problems with the bill as it stands.

On reasonableness, there is a low threshold. The Fiscal Commission also made it clear in writing to the committee that it looks not at the final numbers—the outputs—but purely at the methodology.

The second problem is that the minister has tried to suggest that the committee’s position of wanting the Fiscal Commission to do the forecasting is the outlier. However, that is not correct either, because the true outlier is the commission proposed by the bill.

Some fiscal institutes do official forecasts, some prepare their own unofficial forecasts and some rely on a number of different forecasts in order to reach their view. We would have the only fiscal commission on the planet that would rely solely on the official Government forecasts when looking at what we are likely to bring in. I could not find another example of such a fiscal commission. When I asked the Government for such examples, I was told that Sweden and Ireland were the examples to follow. However, we went to Sweden and found that that was incorrect, because the institute in Sweden examines at least six forecasts when deciding how much is likely to be brought in. Other committee members went to Ireland and found that the statement about the example there was not true either, because the Irish fiscal institute prepares not the official forecast but its own forecasts.

There are glaring weaknesses in the bill as it stands. On top of that, there is the issue of the lack of transparency. Okay, the Fiscal Commission will produce a report, but it was made clear to us by the Deputy First Minister himself that any disagreements between the SFC and the Scottish Government about numbers would remain private. The Scottish Government said that it would refuse to publish any earlier figures that show a disparity and any figures that explain in numerical terms what changes have been made. The Government wanted to show us only the final forecast and went as far as saying that it would try to prevent, if it could, the SFC from publishing of its own accord details of disagreements over numbers.

Under the bill, therefore, we would end up with only a certificate of reasonableness from the Scottish Fiscal Commission that we could not look into and examine carefully. That is why the committee reached the position of welcoming the bill and supporting it at stage 1 but stating that huge changes need to be made to it at stages 2 and 3.

That is the committee’s view on the bill, and I look forward to hearing the rest of the debate.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15303, in the name of John Swinney, on the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill. 15:37
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Joe FitzPatrick) SNP
The Deputy First Minister is unable to participate in the debate, as he is attending a family funeral. Therefore, I will be representing the Scottish Governm...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I am sure that the minister will be aware of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development principles that apply to financial institutions of th...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
That brings me to my next point. The Scottish Parliament information centre briefing on the bill demonstrates that, of 23 independent fiscal institutions in ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
We heard yesterday at the Finance Committee that, although the OBR speaks to the Department for Work and Pensions and HM Revenue and Customs, they are not al...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Everyone across the UK should thank the Finance Committee for the light that it has shone on the way in which the OBR deliberates. There are some good quotes...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this debate on the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill, and I want to highlight some key areas that the Finance Committee considered dur...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate on the Scottish Fiscal Commission, and commend the Finance Committee, which I have recently joined, ...
John Mason SNP
I am interested in the member’s use of the word “watchdog”. A watchdog does not do the work itself; rather, it watches someone else doing it. Does she mean t...
Jackie Baillie Lab
It sounded as though that was Mr Mason’s conversion to the commission doing the forecasting. If that is so, I very much welcome that. I will look at the con...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jackie Baillie Lab
Let me make some progress. The commission will interact regularly with Government officials and ministers in order to do its job. Witnesses who gave evidenc...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Has Jackie Baillie read the Fiscal Commission’s report on the draft budget 2016-17?
Jackie Baillie Lab
Indeed I have, and if the minister had read the previous report he would know that the commission keeps asking for information about behavioural forecasting ...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jackie Baillie Lab
No—I really am running out of time. We—including the minister—would be wise to listen to the views of those experts. They believe that the Scottish Fiscal C...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the clerks, witnesses, experts and SPICe for all their efforts in helping us to scrutinise the bill. I express personal gratitude—at the risk o...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Gavin Brown Con
Perhaps Mr Fitzpatrick will tell me what is an unreasonable number—we live in hope.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
In the Fiscal Commission’s reports on last year’s budget, it made it clear to the Deputy First Minister that it thought that his predictions for non-domestic...
Gavin Brown Con
The minister would have been better to stay away from that example, because it contradicts what he said in his opening speech and what the Deputy First Minis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
We now move to the open debate. I call Chic Brodie, to be followed by Dr Richard Simpson. Four minutes, please. 16:09
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer—although I confess that I do not know how to compress into a four-minute speech the importance of the creation on a statutory ba...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Will Chic Brodie give way on that point?
Chic Brodie SNP
No, I will not. I have only four minutes. The OBR made a detailed projection of economic performance parameters, including the oil and gas outlook, as the b...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I have read the Finance Committee’s report and think that it is one of the best that I have read. I also thought that the convener’s speech got to the nub of...
John Mason SNP
Does Richard Simpson accept that Audit Scotland, which gives advice, is independent?
Dr Simpson Lab
Yes—but Audit Scotland’s function is somewhat different. It does not forecast; it scrutinises in retrospect, which is quite different. The Finance Committee...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
I will cover a couple of areas on which the committee took evidence. My colleague John Mason dissented on areas in the report about forecasting, on which he ...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Will Mark McDonald take an intervention?