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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 14 January 2016

14 Jan 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill: Stage 1

Everyone across the UK should thank the Finance Committee for the light that it has shone on the way in which the OBR deliberates. There are some good quotes from HMRC about how its relationship with the OBR is very similar to its previous relationship. What is clear is that there is a lack of transparency in that process south of the border. Of course, there is no question but that it is possible to arrange the process that way round, but the evidence that is clearly set out in the SPICe document is that countries whose independent fiscal institution produces the official fiscal forecast are very much in the minority.

Nothing in the bill prohibits the commission producing alternative forecasts. It is solely for the commission to decide whether it considers that the production of such forecasts would be desirable to support its ability to assess the reasonableness of the Government’s forecasts, and that is the way it should be. I look forward to hearing members’ points on that matter.

I see that time has flown.

The Scottish Government recognises that it is critical to the effectiveness and credibility of the commission that it is structurally, operationally and visibly independent of Government. We have been explicit in the provisions in the bill that the commission will not be subject to the direction or control of any member of the Scottish Government. However, in his response to the stage 1 report, the Deputy First Minister undertook to take further action to reassure Parliament that he is doing all that he can to promote the independence of the commission. He will consider legislative and administrative changes to strengthen the transparency of the operation of the relationship and interactions between the Government and the commission.

The Government welcomes the committee’s support for the appointment process that is provided for in the bill. The Deputy First Minister has already intimated to the committee that the Government will bring forward amendments to the bill at stage 2 to give effect to recommendations to include term lengths in the bill and to allow members to serve two consecutive terms of appointment of no longer than five years each, as recommended by the committee.

The committee raised the issue of the commission’s remit. We recognise that the process of devolution is on-going, with the Scotland Bill going through Westminster and an associated fiscal framework being negotiated. That is why we have provided that the functions of the commission may be expanded in future by regulations, following consultation with the commission and with the express approval of Parliament.

The committee talked about two areas in particular. It suggested that the commission be given the functions of assessing adherence to fiscal rules and assessing the long-term sustainability of devolved public finances. Those issues would most appropriately be revisited following the devolution of further powers. However, it is very much the view of the Government that assessment of the sustainability of public finances is primarily a role for elected members of the Scottish Parliament, who should hold ministers directly to account for the robustness of our financial judgments.

Taken together, the provisions in the bill and the resourcing proposals in the financial memorandum will create a statutory commission that is well equipped to assure the robustness of the tax forecasts that underpin the Scottish budget.

The Government remains of the view that our approach—whereby the commission independently assesses and reviews official forecasts that are prepared by Scottish ministers—maximises transparency and delivers public value by offering the strongest safeguard over the robustness of the forecasts that underpin the Scottish budget. We are not persuaded by the committee’s case, but we will to listen to all the points that are made today. I look forward to hearing members’ views on those and other issues.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill.

15:48  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15303, in the name of John Swinney, on the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill. 15:37
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Joe FitzPatrick) SNP
The Deputy First Minister is unable to participate in the debate, as he is attending a family funeral. Therefore, I will be representing the Scottish Governm...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I am sure that the minister will be aware of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development principles that apply to financial institutions of th...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
That brings me to my next point. The Scottish Parliament information centre briefing on the bill demonstrates that, of 23 independent fiscal institutions in ...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
We heard yesterday at the Finance Committee that, although the OBR speaks to the Department for Work and Pensions and HM Revenue and Customs, they are not al...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Everyone across the UK should thank the Finance Committee for the light that it has shone on the way in which the OBR deliberates. There are some good quotes...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this debate on the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill, and I want to highlight some key areas that the Finance Committee considered dur...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate on the Scottish Fiscal Commission, and commend the Finance Committee, which I have recently joined, ...
John Mason SNP
I am interested in the member’s use of the word “watchdog”. A watchdog does not do the work itself; rather, it watches someone else doing it. Does she mean t...
Jackie Baillie Lab
It sounded as though that was Mr Mason’s conversion to the commission doing the forecasting. If that is so, I very much welcome that. I will look at the con...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jackie Baillie Lab
Let me make some progress. The commission will interact regularly with Government officials and ministers in order to do its job. Witnesses who gave evidenc...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Has Jackie Baillie read the Fiscal Commission’s report on the draft budget 2016-17?
Jackie Baillie Lab
Indeed I have, and if the minister had read the previous report he would know that the commission keeps asking for information about behavioural forecasting ...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Jackie Baillie Lab
No—I really am running out of time. We—including the minister—would be wise to listen to the views of those experts. They believe that the Scottish Fiscal C...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
I, too, thank the clerks, witnesses, experts and SPICe for all their efforts in helping us to scrutinise the bill. I express personal gratitude—at the risk o...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Gavin Brown Con
Perhaps Mr Fitzpatrick will tell me what is an unreasonable number—we live in hope.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
In the Fiscal Commission’s reports on last year’s budget, it made it clear to the Deputy First Minister that it thought that his predictions for non-domestic...
Gavin Brown Con
The minister would have been better to stay away from that example, because it contradicts what he said in his opening speech and what the Deputy First Minis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
We now move to the open debate. I call Chic Brodie, to be followed by Dr Richard Simpson. Four minutes, please. 16:09
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer—although I confess that I do not know how to compress into a four-minute speech the importance of the creation on a statutory ba...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Will Chic Brodie give way on that point?
Chic Brodie SNP
No, I will not. I have only four minutes. The OBR made a detailed projection of economic performance parameters, including the oil and gas outlook, as the b...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I have read the Finance Committee’s report and think that it is one of the best that I have read. I also thought that the convener’s speech got to the nub of...
John Mason SNP
Does Richard Simpson accept that Audit Scotland, which gives advice, is independent?
Dr Simpson Lab
Yes—but Audit Scotland’s function is somewhat different. It does not forecast; it scrutinises in retrospect, which is quite different. The Finance Committee...
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
I will cover a couple of areas on which the committee took evidence. My colleague John Mason dissented on areas in the report about forecasting, on which he ...
Jackie Baillie Lab
Will Mark McDonald take an intervention?