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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 14 January 2016

14 Jan 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I welcome this stage 1 debate although, like Iain Gray, I feel as if we have had this debate already on a number of occasions.

I want to raise a couple of issues. The first is that the Scottish Government is clear that our successful and internationally renowned universities are, and will remain, autonomous bodies. That is only right; the important point for me is how we can help them to grow to become even better than they are at the moment.

I do not think that the Scottish Government is being unreasonable when it asks for the very highest standards of governance, considering that it invests more than £1 billion every year in the sector. It is only right that it would expect those high standards—surely that is not too much to ask.

I could stop at that, Presiding Officer—some in the chamber of might think that that is a good idea—but I will not, as I have much more to say.

Many who provided evidence to the committee agreed that the debate and the bill are about ensuring that our universities continue to succeed. Stewart Maxwell, the convener of the committee, has already quoted Mary Senior, of UCU Scotland, but I think that it is a very important quote. She said:

“No one is questioning that Scottish universities are good—they are good. What we are saying is that they could be so much better if staff, students and trade unions were fully involved in how they operate.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 6 October 2015; c 11.]

That shows the enthusiasm for the bill that exists in the sector, and the enthusiasm of the sector to work to make the bill even better. We also heard from Professor Von Prondzynski, the principal and vice-chancellor of Robert Gordon University. He said:

“Universities are autonomous bodies, and should be. But their autonomy should not shield them from legitimate expectations that they engage with staff, students and external partners, or from the need to behave in an accountable manner.”

Those quotes explain the position perfectly. Here are two individuals who work in different parts of the sector, both coming to the conclusion that we must move forward. We cannot allow these world-renowned universities to be left behind. The world continues to spin, time moves on and we all need to move forward and progress.

That brings me to the ONS question. In all honesty, I believe that the argument has been used in order to keep us from talking about the many positives of the bill. That in no way means that I take the threat of ONS reclassification lightly, and nor does the Scottish Government, which has stated continually that it does not believe that the bill would lead to reclassification and that, if universities were to be reclassified, it would do all in its power to fight against that. I agree with the cabinet secretary, who states in her letter of 11 January to the committee that

“the Scottish Government concluded that the Bill did not propose any additional risk of re-classification, with specific reference to these secondary indicators of control ... we do not agree with the conclusions reached in the advice provided by Anderson Strathern on what is primarily a matter of statistical classification. However, we have taken careful note of all evidence shared with both the Finance Committee and the Education and Culture Committee. In light of this, I plan to lodge a number of Scottish Government amendments at Stage 2 of the Bill’s consideration. A number of these are relevant to the points made in the Committee’s Stage 1 report. Specifically, the Scottish Government will consider removal of sections 8 and 13 in the Bill.”

That is welcome, because it gives us the opportunity to discuss the important parts of the bill. Too much time has been spent on what could have happened or should have happened—

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is a debate on motion S4M-15304, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Higher Education Governanc...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Angela Constance) SNP
I am delighted to open the debate. I start by thanking the Education and Culture Committee for its stage 1 report, and also the Finance Committee and the Del...
Jim Eadie (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the thrust of the bill, which seeks to make our universities’ governance arrangements more inclusive and accountable. The cabinet secretary will be...
Angela Constance SNP
As I have said to people repeatedly, our universities are and will remain autonomous. There is nothing in the bill as introduced, nor will there be anything ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary tell us where the mathematics or arithmetic is to back up that point?
Angela Constance SNP
We can all have a good, robust debate about mathematics. I could take issue with some of the arithmetic and the evidence that was presented to the committee....
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Angela Constance SNP
Perhaps I will if there is time later, Mr Brodie. I am keen to make more progress. In summary, we will require HEIs to advertise those positions. Interested...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Stewart Maxwell to speak on behalf of the Education and Culture Committee. 14:11
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP) SNP
There is a strong consensus that our higher education institutions should uphold the highest standards of governance. However, there are differences of opini...
Chic Brodie SNP
Is it not conceivable that the rector, having been elected by the wider franchise, could take a co-chair’s role in looking at the policy of the university? T...
Stewart Maxwell SNP
That is one of the possible models that could arise from the Scottish Government’s suggestions and the work that the Government and the sector will take on. ...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
It seems to me that we have debated the bill and its measures a number of times, so it is quite hard to believe that we are just at the stage 1 debate. Nonet...
Jim Eadie SNP
The member will be aware that the University of Edinburgh has very strong and inclusive governance arrangements, which include the election of the rector by ...
Iain Gray Lab
In light of the amendments that the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning has promised to lodge, the bill may at least recognise the strength...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
When the bill was first mooted, the Scottish Government made it very clear that its only intention was to make some minor amendments to allow greater transpa...
Jim Eadie SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
I will not, if the member does not mind. It became increasingly evident that there was some seriously flawed thinking in the bill when it came to the questi...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Liz Smith Con
If the member does not mind, I will not as I am very short of time. That crucial point was very clearly expressed by Alastair Sim, Professor Anton Muscatell...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Ms Smith, can I stop you for just a second? I am afraid that we had a slight problem with the clock, so please do not think that you are at 10 minutes. I hav...
Liz Smith Con
I will take 20 minutes, Presiding Officer, if you so wish. Laughter. How long do I have?
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can give you another two or three minutes.
Liz Smith Con
Thank you very much. The third issue, which is crucial, is about governance and democratic accountability. Some commentators seem to argue that the universi...
Jim Eadie SNP
Will the member give way?
Liz Smith Con
I am in my last minute. Governance arrangements that minimise the likelihood of serious conflict in the governing body are those that are most likely to pro...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I welcome this stage 1 debate although, like Iain Gray, I feel as if we have had this debate already on a number of occasions. I want to raise a couple of ...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
George Adam has mentioned the amendments that will be lodged at stage 2. Will they be effective in the case of the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland and Glasgo...
George Adam SNP
I remember their evidence well. I will need to wait and see what is proposed at stage 2 in order to discuss where we might go with that. A lot of our discu...
Cara Hilton (Dunfermline) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to follow George Adam. I think that that was the first time that he did not mention Paisley in a speech—very novel. It is pleasing, too, to have...