Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 14 January 2016
14 Jan 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I will not, if the member does not mind.
It became increasingly evident that there was some seriously flawed thinking in the bill when it came to the question of ministerial powers, ONS reclassification and democratic accountability in governance. The whole sector, including the unions, was crystal clear that several key aspects of the bill, most of which related to sections 8 and 13, would change the very nature of our higher education institutions, specifically by increasing ministerial powers and making universities public sector bodies. The Scottish Government denied that that was its intention but that was indeed the interpretation of the wording in the bill.
Universities Scotland had, and still has, substantive reasons for being concerned about the prospect of ONS reclassification of universities. When the Government persisted in its claims that reclassification presented zero additional risk, there was no detailed independent advice—and there still is none. Indeed, there were no estimates of the costs that universities might face—
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is a debate on motion S4M-15304, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Higher Education Governanc...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Angela Constance)
SNP
I am delighted to open the debate. I start by thanking the Education and Culture Committee for its stage 1 report, and also the Finance Committee and the Del...
Jim Eadie (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome the thrust of the bill, which seeks to make our universities’ governance arrangements more inclusive and accountable. The cabinet secretary will be...
Angela Constance
SNP
As I have said to people repeatedly, our universities are and will remain autonomous. There is nothing in the bill as introduced, nor will there be anything ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Will the cabinet secretary tell us where the mathematics or arithmetic is to back up that point?
Angela Constance
SNP
We can all have a good, robust debate about mathematics. I could take issue with some of the arithmetic and the evidence that was presented to the committee....
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Angela Constance
SNP
Perhaps I will if there is time later, Mr Brodie. I am keen to make more progress. In summary, we will require HEIs to advertise those positions. Interested...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I call Stewart Maxwell to speak on behalf of the Education and Culture Committee. 14:11
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
There is a strong consensus that our higher education institutions should uphold the highest standards of governance. However, there are differences of opini...
Chic Brodie
SNP
Is it not conceivable that the rector, having been elected by the wider franchise, could take a co-chair’s role in looking at the policy of the university? T...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
That is one of the possible models that could arise from the Scottish Government’s suggestions and the work that the Government and the sector will take on. ...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
It seems to me that we have debated the bill and its measures a number of times, so it is quite hard to believe that we are just at the stage 1 debate. Nonet...
Jim Eadie
SNP
The member will be aware that the University of Edinburgh has very strong and inclusive governance arrangements, which include the election of the rector by ...
Iain Gray
Lab
In light of the amendments that the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning has promised to lodge, the bill may at least recognise the strength...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
When the bill was first mooted, the Scottish Government made it very clear that its only intention was to make some minor amendments to allow greater transpa...
Jim Eadie
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith
Con
I will not, if the member does not mind. It became increasingly evident that there was some seriously flawed thinking in the bill when it came to the questi...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way?
Liz Smith
Con
If the member does not mind, I will not as I am very short of time. That crucial point was very clearly expressed by Alastair Sim, Professor Anton Muscatell...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Ms Smith, can I stop you for just a second? I am afraid that we had a slight problem with the clock, so please do not think that you are at 10 minutes. I hav...
Liz Smith
Con
I will take 20 minutes, Presiding Officer, if you so wish. Laughter. How long do I have?
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I can give you another two or three minutes.
Liz Smith
Con
Thank you very much. The third issue, which is crucial, is about governance and democratic accountability. Some commentators seem to argue that the universi...
Jim Eadie
SNP
Will the member give way?
Liz Smith
Con
I am in my last minute. Governance arrangements that minimise the likelihood of serious conflict in the governing body are those that are most likely to pro...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)
SNP
I welcome this stage 1 debate although, like Iain Gray, I feel as if we have had this debate already on a number of occasions. I want to raise a couple of ...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
SNP
George Adam has mentioned the amendments that will be lodged at stage 2. Will they be effective in the case of the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland and Glasgo...
George Adam
SNP
I remember their evidence well. I will need to wait and see what is proposed at stage 2 in order to discuss where we might go with that. A lot of our discu...
Cara Hilton (Dunfermline) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased to follow George Adam. I think that that was the first time that he did not mention Paisley in a speech—very novel. It is pleasing, too, to have...