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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 14 January 2016

14 Jan 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

That is one of the possible models that could arise from the Scottish Government’s suggestions and the work that the Government and the sector will take on. Given that I am speaking as convener of the committee, I will not give a view on whether that model should be chosen. I will say only that there should be flexibility across the sector to allow it to figure out the best way of going forward along with the Government in subsequent discussions. I note that there will be amendments in this area and that the Scottish Government’s view is that it will be up to institutions to ensure that rectors and elected chairs work effectively together.

The bill proposes the inclusion of new members on the governing bodies of institutions, including trade union representatives. Higher education institutions stressed that union representatives on governing bodies should be there in a representative capacity for all staff, to avoid the possible accusation of a conflict of interest.

We were not persuaded by such arguments and we noted that all members of a governing body must act in its best interest. We also agreed with the principle that a diverse group of people should be included on the governing body and recognised that the bill’s proposals would make governance more inclusive. However, we recognised that such changes would not in and of themselves guarantee improved governance.

HEIs were concerned about how they would accommodate the changes to governing body membership, given that such bodies are not supposed to have more than 25 members. Concerns about changes to the governing body were just one of the reasons that the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland cited in its recent letter to the Scottish Government to ask to be excluded from the bill. I am sure that we would all very much welcome the cabinet secretary’s views on that request.

I would like to know whether institutions are likely to be reassured by the Scottish Government’s suggestion that governing bodies are not now to include two graduate members. That did not seem to be a major concern in our evidence taking. They might be more comforted by the Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council’s response to our report, which in summary said that it would not be concerned by a short-term increase in governing-body membership.

I have already touched on reclassification. There is no specific reference to Scottish HEIs being included in the relevant work that the ONS is carrying out. Nonetheless, we appreciate that reclassification would be in no one’s interest and recommended that all reasonable measures be taken to minimise any risk of it occurring.

In part, the HE sector’s concerns stem from the sections of the bill that would give the Scottish ministers the power to make regulations about governing bodies and academic boards. We therefore welcome the cabinet secretary’s commitment to amend or remove sections 8 and 13.

However, despite what the cabinet secretary said a moment ago, I remain disappointed that the Scottish Government has still not adequately addressed our request for further information on academic freedom and specifically on students’ freedom. I expect a response to the committee on that issue as soon as possible.

A key consideration when scrutinising any bill is the improvement that it is likely to deliver. Such a judgment may be particularly difficult with this bill, as separate efforts by HEIs are also under way to improve governance. We therefore asked the cabinet secretary how she would evaluate the bill’s success and were pleased when she confirmed that the sector would play a role in monitoring the bill’s impact. We expect that to be a fully inclusive exercise that involves all the relevant bodies in the higher education community. That would be consistent with the bill’s aims and would encourage everyone to continue to focus on improving our already world-class higher education sector.

14:19  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is a debate on motion S4M-15304, in the name of Angela Constance, on the Higher Education Governanc...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Angela Constance) SNP
I am delighted to open the debate. I start by thanking the Education and Culture Committee for its stage 1 report, and also the Finance Committee and the Del...
Jim Eadie (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the thrust of the bill, which seeks to make our universities’ governance arrangements more inclusive and accountable. The cabinet secretary will be...
Angela Constance SNP
As I have said to people repeatedly, our universities are and will remain autonomous. There is nothing in the bill as introduced, nor will there be anything ...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
Will the cabinet secretary tell us where the mathematics or arithmetic is to back up that point?
Angela Constance SNP
We can all have a good, robust debate about mathematics. I could take issue with some of the arithmetic and the evidence that was presented to the committee....
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Angela Constance SNP
Perhaps I will if there is time later, Mr Brodie. I am keen to make more progress. In summary, we will require HEIs to advertise those positions. Interested...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I call Stewart Maxwell to speak on behalf of the Education and Culture Committee. 14:11
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP) SNP
There is a strong consensus that our higher education institutions should uphold the highest standards of governance. However, there are differences of opini...
Chic Brodie SNP
Is it not conceivable that the rector, having been elected by the wider franchise, could take a co-chair’s role in looking at the policy of the university? T...
Stewart Maxwell SNP
That is one of the possible models that could arise from the Scottish Government’s suggestions and the work that the Government and the sector will take on. ...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab) Lab
It seems to me that we have debated the bill and its measures a number of times, so it is quite hard to believe that we are just at the stage 1 debate. Nonet...
Jim Eadie SNP
The member will be aware that the University of Edinburgh has very strong and inclusive governance arrangements, which include the election of the rector by ...
Iain Gray Lab
In light of the amendments that the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning has promised to lodge, the bill may at least recognise the strength...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
When the bill was first mooted, the Scottish Government made it very clear that its only intention was to make some minor amendments to allow greater transpa...
Jim Eadie SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Liz Smith Con
I will not, if the member does not mind. It became increasingly evident that there was some seriously flawed thinking in the bill when it came to the questi...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Liz Smith Con
If the member does not mind, I will not as I am very short of time. That crucial point was very clearly expressed by Alastair Sim, Professor Anton Muscatell...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Ms Smith, can I stop you for just a second? I am afraid that we had a slight problem with the clock, so please do not think that you are at 10 minutes. I hav...
Liz Smith Con
I will take 20 minutes, Presiding Officer, if you so wish. Laughter. How long do I have?
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can give you another two or three minutes.
Liz Smith Con
Thank you very much. The third issue, which is crucial, is about governance and democratic accountability. Some commentators seem to argue that the universi...
Jim Eadie SNP
Will the member give way?
Liz Smith Con
I am in my last minute. Governance arrangements that minimise the likelihood of serious conflict in the governing body are those that are most likely to pro...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I welcome this stage 1 debate although, like Iain Gray, I feel as if we have had this debate already on a number of occasions. I want to raise a couple of ...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
George Adam has mentioned the amendments that will be lodged at stage 2. Will they be effective in the case of the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland and Glasgo...
George Adam SNP
I remember their evidence well. I will need to wait and see what is proposed at stage 2 in order to discuss where we might go with that. A lot of our discu...
Cara Hilton (Dunfermline) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to follow George Adam. I think that that was the first time that he did not mention Paisley in a speech—very novel. It is pleasing, too, to have...