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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 07 January 2016

07 Jan 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Lobbying (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I thank the minister for confirming that he is not a Luddite and that he is a modern man in the modern age. I am sure that he will want to ensure that the bill is a modern bill for the modern age, and that the Government will come back at stage 2 with a new definition of regulated lobbying.

Professor Raj Chari said during a committee evidence session:

“I had never seen such wording before. It pains me to say that even the UK recognises that lobbying takes place by way of written communication.”—[Official Report, Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee, 12 November 2015; c 21.]

I am sure that the minister does not want to be compared unfavourably with the dog’s breakfast that is the UK lobbying act—the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act 2014. We want a better proposal than what is in the bill. We must recognise its absurdity and fix it as soon as possible.

We also need to address the weaknesses in the provisions on who should be included in the register as having been lobbied. We all know how lobbyists target special advisers and civil servants, and they must be included in the proposals. Not to include them would leave a glaring loophole that could easily be exploited. The minister mentioned the SALT briefing that we have received, and in its polling, 91 per cent of the public believed that SPADs and civil servants must be included in the register. I hope that the minister will take that into account. There is no mention, either, of financial disclosure. If we want people to have faith in the system, it is surely vital that they know the scale of lobbying. Are people spending a fiver or five grand? That would tell us the scale of the lobbying that goes on, and 92 per cent of people support the inclusion of that information.

We also need thresholds to ensure that normal MSP contact is unaffected, that one-off or infrequent lobbying is not included and that only significant lobbying by those who invest significant amounts of money and time to influence policies or win contracts are included in any register. Failure to make that clear has led to the fear that all the activities of anyone who approaches parliamentarians will have to be registered. That was never the intention. I hope that it is not the Government’s intention—I am sure that it is not.

My original proposals also suggested that the working careers of lobbyists should be included in the register, because too often we see the revolving door in operation whereby ex-politicians, special advisers and civil servants move into new roles and, within a short period, open up their contact books to gain access to decision makers, using all the knowledge and relationships that they built up in their previous employment to influence policy or win contracts for their new clients or bosses. Again, that can lead to negative perceptions among the public, yet there is no mention of a revolving-door provision in the Government’s proposals. We need only look at what has happened with recent Governments of all persuasions at Westminster to see all that in action—for example, with the new recruits at Aberdeen Asset Management, Weber Shandwick and Charlotte Street Partners. As I said, that has happened at Westminster under Governments of all persuasions.

The bill has many flaws and some of it is a bit of a mess. At a seminar that I and the convener of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee attended recently to discuss the bill, an independent expert on lobbying said that, at best, he would give it two out of 10, but that he would give the US system six out of 10. That does not bode well for the bill’s claims of transparency. If the bill is to work and to enhance our democracy, it will need serious amendment, and we intend to lodge many of the necessary amendments at stage 2.

15:55  

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15220, in the name of Joe FitzPatrick. 15:16
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Joe FitzPatrick) SNP
The Lobbying (Scotland) Bill is an unusual bill: it has been introduced by the Government, but is parliamentary in nature. For that reason, I have been keen ...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I would like to exemplify the point. If the minister has a problem with a product that he has bought or a bill that he gets and he has to contact a company t...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
As I said, the Government is keeping an open mind on the issue. Our starting point in attempting to provide a proportionate response has been to consider wha...
Neil Findlay Lab
Again, I ask a question: is most of our time taken up meeting people face to face or is most of our time taken up dealing with communications of another type?
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
We would all have to go and look at our diaries to work out how much time we spend meeting people. I am clear in my view that face-to-face lobbying is the mo...
Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I thank the minister for taking another intervention. I will be very brief. Will the minister clarify in what form were the bulk of the communications that h...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I will give you extra time, minister.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
Okay. In terms of volume, I—like every other member—have probably received the greater volume in the form of emails, which is significant. However, in terms ...
Neil Findlay Lab
Because your staff read the emails.
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I think that I, myself, have read every single email that has come in about the bill. I will continue: I have had meetings with stakeholders on all sides of...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind) Ind
Would the minister make a distinction between lobbying and organised lobbying? The majority of emails that I have had this week on the bill, and those on oth...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
I am conscious that I should make some progress, but that is absolutely the case, and the bill as drafted makes that distinction, which is very important. T...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
The term “lobbying” can, for some people at least, conjure up images of dubious characters loitering in the corridors of power, attempting to gain unfair adv...
Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP) SNP
Warren Buffet once said that the contribution of people, particularly those in public service, requires integrity, intellect and energy, and without the firs...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
The committee’s view is that we need to seek to differentiate between lobbyists who lobby as part of their paid activity and those individuals and organisati...
Neil Findlay Lab
Having read the committee’s stage 1 report, I understand that it rejected thresholds for registration. That was an error. Having thresholds would have meant ...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
There was an element of judgment; there is no absolute certainty in this. However, the test of including only people who receive reward for their lobbying is...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
You have nine minutes, Mr Stevenson, but there is a little flexibility.
Stewart Stevenson SNP
Thank you—that is helpful. We looked at the distinction that the bill makes between paid and unpaid lobbying. We basically endorsed the Government’s approac...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to open the debate on behalf on the Labour Party. I am also pleased that the Government has got round to introducing the bill, because this deba...
Chic Brodie SNP
Not here.
Neil Findlay Lab
Calm your jets, Mr Brodie. After all those things and the current financial controversies of some MPs, that general standing is not high. Thankfully, the Pa...
Joe FitzPatrick SNP
It is not the case that the Government does not recognise those other forms of lobbying. Indeed, the bill allows for the Parliament to put in place guidance ...
Neil Findlay Lab
I thank the minister for confirming that he is not a Luddite and that he is a modern man in the modern age. I am sure that he will want to ensure that the bi...
Cameron Buchanan (Lothian) (Con) Con
I, too, am glad that we have the chance to debate the Lobbying (Scotland) Bill and all of the possible routes to take. If we are to achieve the cross-party c...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
We turn to the open debate, with speeches of six minutes or so. At this stage, there is a bit of time in hand for interventions. 16:00
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP
I was a member of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee during the original inquiry into lobbying and while most of the work on the iss...
Neil Findlay Lab
Will Mr Adam take an intervention?
George Adam SNP
Can I just get this point across, Mr Findlay? The bill as it stands will make it difficult for local employers and small businesses to contact me. Some smal...