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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 November 2015

11 Nov 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Succession (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Baker, Richard Lab North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

Although the bill is technical in nature, I agree with other members’ view that it is important. All of us, inside or outside the chamber, want to be assured that Scotland has a legal framework on succession that ensures that what happens to the estate of someone who dies is in line with their wishes and that those whom they want to benefit do benefit, aided and not hindered by legislation.

This area of law has been in need of reform, as John Scott pointed out. That is what we heard from those who gave evidence to the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee’s inquiry. Indeed, given that the Scottish Law Commission reported on the issue in 1990 and again in 2009, it could be argued that the reform is somewhat overdue.

That is why it is evidently beneficial that, in this Parliament, what was previously the Subordinate Legislation Committee has had its remit broadened to include law reform bills. That means that good proposals for legislation have been acted on rather than left to gather dust. Whatever the shape and structure of the committees in the next session of Parliament, I hope that there will be a committee that will continue taking forward Scottish Law Commission bills.

The DPLR Committee’s deliberations on the Succession (Scotland) Bill have been effective, and we can conclude that legislating on technical matters concerning succession before further legislation is introduced on substantive matters of succession policy has been the right approach and has allowed the reforms to be made timeously. However, I echo the evidence that we heard at committee that, in the fullness of time, ministers should proceed with consolidation focused on the two acts.

Although there has been a great deal of consensus on the bill, there have been areas on which witnesses urged ministers to take a different approach. Other members have discussed that with reference to survivorship, forfeiture, guardianship and the point at which section 1 should come into effect. I believe that the committee and the minister have taken the right approach on those subjects.

The issue that I pursued at committee with those who gave evidence was rectification, and specifically the proposal from TrustBar, the Law Society of Scotland and others that the scope of the provisions on rectification should be widened so that they might include documents that are drawn up by the testator such as handwritten wills and wills that are created online using templates, which Stewart Stevenson discussed in his speech.

The majority of witnesses identified as the crucial concern in the matter whether a third party was present in some shape or form when the document was drawn up. I understand the minister’s contention that the presence of someone else to verify that the person’s intent was different from what was ultimately expressed in the will is the key issue. The committee agreed that the scope of the provisions should not be extended, but the debate on the issue and the points that Mr Stevenson made highlight that more and more people will go online to create important documents such as wills and the law must stay abreast of that social context.

It is not unreasonable to say that, given that the priority is to enable people’s wishes to be abided by, things such as online will templates should also be given weight when we determine what those wishes actually were. I do not pretend that there is an easy answer to the issue, but ministers should keep a watching brief on how documents pertaining to legal issues that are drafted online by individuals should be regarded by the law, and not only on the issue of succession. Today, in its briefing, the Law Society of Scotland asks ministers to rethink their approach to the matter in the bill.

The bill is technical, but it has thrown up important questions. It concerns an important area of law that has needed reform for some time and it raises interesting points of detail in law that will provide ministers with quite a lot to reflect on, both today and for further bills.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14768, in the name of Paul Wheelhouse, on the Succession (Scotland) Bill. 14:40
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse) SNP
I am pleased to open the debate on the Succession (Scotland) Bill. I thank those who submitted evidence, and I thank the convener, members and clerks of the ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee on the Succession (Scotland) Bill. This is a Scottish Law Commi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Could you draw to a close, please?
Nigel Don SNP
Although the reforms in the bill are technical and comparatively uncontroversial, they represent very important and necessary changes to succession law. More...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
As has been said, this bill was not considered by the Justice Committee, and I was completely unaware of its provisions until last week. I have not read thro...
John Scott (Ayr) (Con) Con
I, too, am pleased to be participating in this stage 1 debate on the Succession (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee’s con...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We now move to the short open debate, with speeches of a maximum of four minutes. 15:05
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
This is an interesting bill, which we have been dealing with in the DPLR Committee. I will address my remarks to the rectification provisions in sections 3 a...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Although the bill is technical in nature, I agree with other members’ view that it is important. All of us, inside or outside the chamber, want to be assured...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Will you draw to a close, please?
Richard Baker Lab
The bill should certainly be supported at stage 1 today.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We turn to the closing speeches. 15:13
John Scott Con
I thank members for a good debate this afternoon. It is clear that there is a great deal of consensus in the Parliament and I am pleased that the Scottish La...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Labour supports the approach that has been taken at stage 1. Wills and inheritance are an important issue and I am grateful to Nigel Don and the DPLR Committ...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
The member talks about keeping up with modern developments. Does he welcome, as I think I do, the abolition of the Parricide Act 1594, because it means that ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I am afraid that you are approaching your last minute, Mr Pearson.
Graeme Pearson Lab
Indeed. I accept Stewart Stevenson’s point. The Parricide Act was enacted in 1594, so it has taken us a while to reconsider the circumstances, but the decisi...
Paul Wheelhouse SNP
The spirit of this afternoon’s debate has served to highlight the value that the scrutiny of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee brings to the Scot...
Nigel Don SNP
On that point, I am conscious of the issue of common calamity, when we are not clear in which order people have died, and the risk that the estate will finis...
Paul Wheelhouse SNP
I take the member’s points on board. We are trying to deliver as much certainty as we can in the law of succession. I was going to turn in any case to the p...