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Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
17 Mar 2016
General Question Time · Fracking (Central Scotland)
Even with the moratorium in place, people across Central Scotland are concerned about the impact of fracking and want to know that their leaders will fight against it, but Jim Ratcliffe of Ineos has reportedly received assurances that the Scottish National Party Government is ...
3. Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
17 Mar 2016
General Question Time · Fracking (Central Scotland)
To ask the Scottish Government what impact fracking would have on Central Scotland. (S4O-05678)
The Convener Lab Committee
10 Mar 2016
Subordinate Legislation
That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. As this is likely to be our last meeting before dissolution, I thank everyone for their work this session. 10:02 Meeting continued in private until 10:30.
The Convener Lab Committee
10 Mar 2016
Subordinate Legislation
Thank you. Does the committee agree that it does not wish to make any recommendations in relation to the instruments? Members indicated agreement.
The Convener Lab Committee
10 Mar 2016
Subordinate Legislation
Agenda item 2 is subordinate legislation. The committee is asked to consider two negative instruments, SSI 2016/66 and SSI 2016/67, both of which relate to gender recognition, marriage and civil partnership. Further information can be found in the policy notes. The Delegated ...
The Convener (Margaret McCulloch) Lab Committee
10 Mar 2016
Decision on Taking Business in Private
Welcome to the Equal Opportunities Committee’s sixth meeting in 2016. Please switch all electronic devices to flight mode or off. Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking business in private. Does the committee agree to consider in private at agenda item 3 its approach to this s...
The Convener Lab Committee
25 Feb 2016
Annual Report
That error was put there deliberately to check that people read the report. Laughter. If no one else has any comments to make about the annual report, we will take on board those points. That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. Our next meeting will take place on T...
The Convener Lab Committee
25 Feb 2016
Annual Report
That is okay.
The Convener Lab Committee
25 Feb 2016
Annual Report
Yes, we can do that.
The Convener Lab Committee
25 Feb 2016
Annual Report
Agenda item 3 is consideration of a draft annual report for the parliamentary year from 11 May 2015 to 23 March 2016. Do members have any comments on the annual report?
The Convener Lab Committee
25 Feb 2016
Petition
Are members happy to include the petition in our legacy paper? Members indicated agreement.
The Convener Lab Committee
25 Feb 2016
Petition
The minister said in his letter to the committee: “I stated on 1 December that the Scottish Government will, before the end of this Parliamentary term in 2016, meet the SNP manifesto commitment to publish an options paper on an environmental court.” There is no actual date a...
The Convener Lab Committee
25 Feb 2016
Petition
At agenda item 2 we will consider petition PE1372. When we considered the petition last year, we requested information from the Scottish Legal Aid Board and the Scottish Government. Their responses, and an update from the petitioner, are included in the meeting papers. We hav...
The Convener (Margaret McCulloch) Lab Committee
25 Feb 2016
Decision on Taking Business in Private
Welcome to the fifth meeting in 2016 of the Equal Opportunities Committee. I ask everyone to set any electronic devices to flight mode or switch them off. We have received apologies from Drew Smith. Agenda item 1 is a decision whether to take in private item 4, which is consi...
The Convener Lab Committee
11 Feb 2016
Subordinate Legislation
That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. Our next meeting will take place on Thursday 25 February. 10:17 Meeting continued in private until 10:38.
The Convener Lab Committee
11 Feb 2016
Subordinate Legislation
We will report the outcome of our consideration to the Parliament. I thank the cabinet secretary for his participation.
The Convener Lab Committee
11 Feb 2016
Subordinate Legislation
As members have no more questions, we move to agenda item 3, which is formal consideration of motion S4M-15553. Motion moved, That the Equal Opportunities Committee recommends that the Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2016 draft be approve...
The Convener Lab Committee
11 Feb 2016
Subordinate Legislation
Thank you, cabinet secretary. Annabel Goldie will ask the first question.
The Convener Lab Committee
11 Feb 2016
Subordinate Legislation
Agenda item 2 is an evidence-taking session with the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Communities and Pensioners’ Rights on an instrument that, having been laid under the affirmative procedure, must be approved by Parliament before the provisions may come into force. Foll...
The Convener Lab Committee
11 Feb 2016
Decision on Taking Business in Private
Agenda item 1 is a decision whether to take in private item 4, which is consideration of a paper on our review of budget considerations. Are we agreed? Members indicated agreement.
The Convener (Margaret McCulloch) Lab Committee
11 Feb 2016
Decision on Taking Business in Private
Welcome to the fourth meeting in 2016 of the Equal Opportunities Committee. Please switch off any electronic devices or set them to flight mode. I will start with introductions. We are supported at the table by clerking and research staff, official reporters and broadcasting ...
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
10 Feb 2016
Female Genital Mutilation
I thank all members who have supported the motion and allowed me to bring the issue of female genital mutilation to the chamber. I also thank all the organisations and activists who have committed so much of their time to raising awareness of FGM not just among the wider publi...
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
10 Feb 2016
Portfolio Question Time · HM Revenue and Customs (Centralisation)
I thank the cabinet secretary for that response and for his correspondence with me about the impact of the planned HMRC closures in my region. What plans does the Scottish Government have to provide assistance to trade unions and community leaders to help them to build a case...
1. Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
10 Feb 2016
Portfolio Question Time · HM Revenue and Customs (Centralisation)
To ask the Scottish Government what the impact would be on Scotland’s economy of the proposed centralisation of HM Revenue and Customs offices. (S4O-05534)
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
09 Feb 2016
Transplantation (Authorisation of Removal of Organs etc) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
If the bill does not proceed, I hope that the Government will revisit the issue in the next session of Parliament, as it has promised. For now, I will support a soft opt-out to give real hope to all those who are waiting for a life-saving transplant, and their families. Let us...
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
09 Feb 2016
Transplantation (Authorisation of Removal of Organs etc) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Yes. I totally agree. Also, under the bill, the relatives are consulted and their wishes are taken into account as well. For us in Scotland—a country that has already improved public education and awareness in the health professions—the next step is surely to look at new ways...
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
09 Feb 2016
Transplantation (Authorisation of Removal of Organs etc) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I congratulate Anne McTaggart on bringing the bill to the chamber and taking her proposals this far through the parliamentary process. Her bill has been an important part of a genuine national conversation about organ donation in this country. That is a testament to her hard w...
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
09 Feb 2016
Transplantation (Authorisation of Removal of Organs etc) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Will the minister take an intervention?
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
I thank the witnesses for their contribution. That concludes the public part of the meeting. Our next meeting will take place on Thursday 11 February. 10:36 Meeting continued in private until 11:26.
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
Thank you very much. Does any of the witnesses have anything else that they would like to say that they have not had the opportunity to mention already?
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
Are there any large employers or any organisations that, in an application form for example, give you the opportunity to use a third option?
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
If you then had to use the service, you would have to explain to the GP that you do not fit.
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
Vic, you said that you have to pick male or female. How does it make you feel when you have to go through that process? What difference would it make if you had the third option?
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
Over to you again, Annabel.
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
Where are you with the current process for gender recognition?
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
Would any of the witnesses like to make a brief opening statement?
The Convener Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Scottish Transgender Alliance and the Equal Recognition Campaign
Item 2 is an evidence session on the Scottish Transgender Alliance’s equal recognition campaign. We will start the session with introductions. At the table, we have our clerking and research team, official reporters and broadcasting services. Around the room, we are supported ...
The Convener (Margaret McCulloch) Lab Committee
04 Feb 2016
Decision on Taking Business in Private
Welcome to the Equal Opportunities Committee’s third meeting in 2016. I ask members to set any electronic devices to flight mode or switch them off. Our first agenda item is a decision on taking business in private. Do we agree to take in private item 3, which is consideratio...
The Convener Lab Committee
21 Jan 2016
Decision on Taking Business in Private
As we previously agreed to take item 2 in private, that concludes the public part of today’s meeting. Our next meeting will take place on Thursday 4 February. 09:31 Meeting continued in private until 11:12.
The Convener (Margaret McCulloch) Lab Committee
21 Jan 2016
Decision on Taking Business in Private
Welcome to the Equal Opportunities Committee’s second meeting in 2016. I ask everyone to switch electronic devices to flight mode or off, please. Under agenda item 1, members are asked to agree to consider in private agenda item 3, which is our approach to this session’s lega...
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
13 Jan 2016
Portfolio Question Time · NHS Lanarkshire (Medical Staffing)
Last year NHS Lanarkshire graded the medical staffing position in a number of departments as “high risk”. It reported concerns about on-going recruitment difficulties, about overreliance on locums and about the future of the board’s approved training status. Can the cabinet se...
4. Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
13 Jan 2016
Portfolio Question Time · NHS Lanarkshire (Medical Staffing)
To ask the Scottish Government what medical staffing challenges it has identified in NHS Lanarkshire. (S4O-05237)
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
12 Jan 2016
Scottish Local Shop Report
I, too, congratulate Gordon MacDonald on securing the debate and on giving us all the opportunity to note the findings of “The Local Shop Report 2015” and to speak more generally about the retail and grocery sector in Scotland. I commend the Association of Convenience Stores, ...
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
06 Jan 2016
Age and Social Isolation
Yes, I totally agree with that. It is also important that the Equal Opportunities Committee continually keeps an eye on the situation later. Mapping is also important, as is the work that is being done to look at prevention and the links between statutory and third sector ser...
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
06 Jan 2016
Age and Social Isolation
Yes, I totally agree with the member on that. The problem is widespread across Scotland and covers all age groups. Ms McCrindle also said that the Food Train does not think that it is a “coincidence that the same number of older people are affected by malnutrition and loneli...
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
06 Jan 2016
Age and Social Isolation
This is a good time for us to talk about social isolation and loneliness. During the festive period, many people will have been alone and thinking about what the year ahead holds, and given what we heard during our inquiry into age and social isolation, we know that, for many ...
The Convener Lab Committee
17 Dec 2015
Decision on Taking Business in Private
As we previously agreed to take item 3 in private, that concludes the public part of today’s meeting. Our next meeting will take place on Thursday 14 January 2016. 09:31 Meeting continued in private until 11:01.
The Convener (Margaret McCulloch) Lab Committee
17 Dec 2015
Decision on Taking Business in Private
Welcome, everyone, to the Equal Opportunities Committee’s 22nd meeting in 2015. I ask members to switch any electronic devices to flight mode or off. The first agenda item is a decision on taking business in private. Do members agree to take in private agenda item 2, which is...
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
15 Dec 2015
Redesigning Primary Care
I put on record my appreciation for the hard work and dedication of GPs. We as a society depend on their skills, experience, hard work and sense of duty to others. They are an invaluable profession; they are essential and their dedication should be acknowledged by the whole Pa...
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
15 Dec 2015
Topical Question Time · Trade Union Bill (Presiding Officer’s Ruling)
For clarity, on the basis that the Scottish Government believes that ministerial executive competence is compromised by the proposed legislation, what consideration does the Government think the relevant committee should give to the issue?
Margaret McCulloch Lab Chamber
15 Dec 2015
Topical Question Time · Trade Union Bill (Presiding Officer’s Ruling)
This Parliament overwhelmingly spoke out against the Trade Union Bill, and Labour members welcomed the Government’s first attempt to lodge an LCM against what is a draconian piece of anti-trade union legislation. As a consequence of the bill and last week’s ruling on the LCM, ...
2. Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab Chamber
15 Dec 2015
Topical Question Time · Trade Union Bill (Presiding Officer’s Ruling)
To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the Presiding Officer’s ruling on a potential legislative consent memorandum regarding the United Kingdom Government’s Trade Union Bill. (S4T-01233)
The Convener Lab Committee
10 Dec 2015
Decisions on Taking Business in Private
We will now move into private. 10:01 Meeting continued in private until 11:18.
The Convener Lab Committee
10 Dec 2015
Decisions on Taking Business in Private
Members are also asked to agree to take in private at future meetings consideration of a draft report on our inquiry into removing barriers: race, ethnicity and employment. Do we agree to do that? Members indicated agreement.
The Convener (Margaret McCulloch) Lab Committee
10 Dec 2015
Decisions on Taking Business in Private
Welcome to the Equal Opportunities Committee’s 21st meeting in 2015. I ask members to switch any electronic devices to flight mode or off, please. The first agenda item is a decision on taking business in private. Members are asked to agree to take in private item 2, which is...
The Convener Lab Committee
26 Nov 2015
Gypsy Travellers (Follow-up)
That concludes today’s meeting. Our next meeting will take place on Thursday 10 December. Meeting closed at 11:19.
The Convener Lab Committee
26 Nov 2015
Gypsy Travellers (Follow-up)
Does the committee agree to ask the clerks to draft a paper for our consideration? Members indicated agreement.
The Convener Lab Committee
26 Nov 2015
Gypsy Travellers (Follow-up)
We can discuss that. The clerks can produce a paper for discussion at our next meeting.
The Convener Lab Committee
26 Nov 2015
Gypsy Travellers (Follow-up)
Agenda item 2 is consideration of Scottish Government correspondence and the Scottish Parliament information centre update paper on Gypsy Travellers, EO/S4/15/20/5. We have just heard evidence from the SHR in respect of the Gypsy Traveller report that it prepared following it...
The Convener Lab Committee
26 Nov 2015
“Gypsy/Travellers in Scotland” (Scottish Housing Regulator Report)
As there are no further questions, I thank everyone for their contributions and suspend the meeting briefly to allow the witnesses to leave the room. 11:13 Meeting suspended. 11:16 On resuming—
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 15 December 2015

15 Dec 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Redesigning Primary Care
Milne, Nanette Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

I am pleased that we are being given the opportunity today to discuss the way forward for primary care in Scotland. Throughout my time in Parliament, we have heard of an impending crisis within the NHS as more people are living longer, with many people in their senior years coping with complex health problems.

The Scottish Government’s 2020 vision is what we all wish for—being able to live at home or in a homely setting for as long as possible, avoiding hospital admission unless we really require specialist in-patient care and then returning to the community as soon as possible with the support services that we need in place. However, the system is currently creaking at the seams due to doctors retiring early, an ageing nursing workforce, young medical graduates being unwilling to face the stresses of general practice and difficulty in recruiting the good home carers that are essential if the frail elderly are to sustain a reasonable quality of life within the community.

I supported the 2004 GP contract because of the difficulty at that time in recruiting young doctors who were prepared to undertake the 24/7 on-call responsibilities of their predecessors. That contract has now run its course and recruitment has fallen again—this time because the demands on the service are leaving GPs with too little time for face-to-face contact with the patients who really need their expertise, and a workload that is stressful and which is leading to a less than satisfactory work-life balance.

Because of the undoubted challenges that are facing the system, it has been all too easy for opposition political parties to attack the Government on health issues which I frankly think—as Jackson Carlaw does—is not good either for patients or for the NHS staff who, in the vast majority of cases, provide a tremendous service for patients, most of whom are very grateful for the care that they receive. I am therefore glad that there now seems to be some consensus developing on the way forward.

The excellent report that was published recently by Sir Lewis Ritchie on out-of-hours care gives an in-depth analysis of the current situation and a comprehensive assessment of what is needed for a sustainable and—to quote Sir Lewis’s report—“seamless service” that not only meets the needs of patients but offers

“a valued working and learning environment for all those delivering health and care Services—whether that be NHS, local authority social services”

or the third sector.

The thrust of the recommendations is that there is a need to develop multidisciplinary teams that include GPs, nurses, AHPs, community pharmacists, social care and other specialists all working together to secure the best out-of-hours care for patients in urgent-care resource hubs across Scotland.

Sir Lewis Ritchie’s recommendations for out-of-hours care would sit well with the daytime integrated health and social care service that is envisaged by most experts who have considered the issue, and with the Scottish Government’s plans to transform primary care services in the light of the demands of an ageing population, and as health and social care services are integrated. I look forward to the Government’s detailed response to the out-of-hours report early next year, and to how it proposes to implement it nationally. I also look forward to hearing the detail of the new general medical services contract that is currently being negotiated with the profession. I am pleased that the Government has now announced the end of the QOF, which has undoubtedly outlived its usefulness.

The future of primary care is clearly at a crossroads at the present time, and the BMA and others point the way forward by stating that the role of GPs and other primary care professionals must be to make best use of the unique skills of each, with proposals that GPs become more involved in complex care and system-wide activities, and that the more routine tasks become more reliant on other health professionals in the wider community team. As senior decision makers, GPs would be seen as the expert generalists in their communities, able to support their local teams where their specific expertise is required.

As has been emphasised by the BMA, the core of general practice that is expected by patients and is the basis for learning the necessary skills has to be personal contact with patients who are, or who see themselves as being, unwell. However, because of limited capacity, there will have to be a balance struck between access to GP appointments, access to other health professionals including nurses and community pharmacists where that is more appropriate, and encouraging supported self-care where appropriate, aided by the use of modern communications technology.

For that to be acceptable to the public, effort will be needed to explain why the changes are required and how they will work. Practices would become the patients’ gateway to appropriate services, and would be overseen and managed by GPs to ensure that patients get the care that is best suited to their needs. For that to be effective, GPs must be at the core of health and social integration at locality level. Indeed, if they are not significantly involved and engaged with integration joint boards, I cannot see integration being successful. As I understand it, that involvement is currently patchy across the country.

It is never easy to change the way we work, and health and social care professionals come from different cultural backgrounds. They will need support to learn different ways of working together with mutual respect for each other, as they seek the best outcomes for the patients in their care. That is already beginning to happen, and there are many good examples of professional co-operation, not least in my region.

For example, the NHS Grampian out-of-hours model employs a significant number of advanced nurse practitioners—all of whom are, or are training to be, independent prescribers—in the main centre in Aberdeen alongside GPs, team members from the Scottish Ambulance Service, community psychiatric and district nurses, Marie Curie nurses and on-site pharmacy provision, and are collocated with NHS 24. Different arrangements apply in the rural centres, where help is available from the main centre via video and telephone links.

If primary care is once again to attract and retain young medical graduates, every indication is that we have to develop team working involving all health professionals, including nurses, AHPs and pharmacists working together with social care and the third and independent sectors. If we can achieve that—at the moment, there is the will, but there is a long journey ahead—we can build a sustainable system of good care in our communities. I think that we are on the cusp of some exciting developments in primary care. I am just sorry that I will not be in Parliament when they come to fruition.

15:50  

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15172, in the name of Shona Robison, on redesigning primary care for Scotland’s communities. 14:33
The Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport (Shona Robison) SNP
I am pleased to be opening this afternoon’s debate. I want to take the opportunity to describe my longer-term vision for primary care, building on Sir Lewis ...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I welcome the publication of those figures today, but it is regrettable that we do not have the full-time equivalent numbers. The headcount does not reflect ...
Shona Robison SNP
No, but a survey will take place that I think will provide more in-depth analysis of some of the data to which Richard Simpson refers. I accept that there a...
Dr Richard Simpson (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I draw members’ attention to my declaration of interests as a member of the BMA and a fellow of the Royal College of General Practitioners. The debate is we...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
I can give you an extra minute or so.
Dr Simpson Lab
That is kind of you—thank you very much. Such practice or locality groups are variously referred to in different documents as clusters, networks, federation...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I need you to close now please, Dr Simpson.
Dr Simpson Lab
Finally, I hope that the Government will publish a set of principles that it seeks to use to underpin any new contract. The task is daunting but, if we all w...
Jim Hume (South Scotland) (LD) LD
I associate myself with the cabinet secretary’s comments about Richard Simpson. I hope that he continues to have an active role, and I am sure that he shall....
Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con) Con
Like the cabinet secretary, I begin by paying tribute to the staff who will be working extremely hard over the winter and the Christmas season. As I noted in...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
I start, as some other members have, by thanking the staff who work in our health service. I speak as someone who represents fairly widely-flung communities ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Could you draw to a close please?
Nigel Don SNP
All the Government has to do is provide those people with an opportunity to contribute. Our job is to make sure that they can do so effectively by ensuring t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Thank you. I am afraid that there is not a lot of time in hand this afternoon, so I ask members to keep to six minutes. 15:18
Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I put on record my appreciation for the hard work and dedication of GPs. We as a society depend on their skills, experience, hard work and sense of duty to o...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to be able to take part in this important debate. Like Jackson Carlaw, I thank the Scottish Government for the content of the motion, particular...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Sandra White SNP
No, I am sorry, but I will not take an intervention. When we look at primary care and integration, will we have data from each local authority to show that...
Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
The report from Professor Sir Lewis Ritchie is a good one, which makes sensible points about the reform of out-of-hours primary practice. I agree with much ...
Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP) SNP
We all know that there are significant challenges to delivering healthcare, given the demographic trends that present us with an ever ageing and increasingly...
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
I am pleased that we are being given the opportunity today to discuss the way forward for primary care in Scotland. Throughout my time in Parliament, we have...
Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to speak in this important debate. I know from the opposition parties’ amendments that the core of their argument seems to be about allocation o...
Jim Hume LD
Will Mike MacKenzie take an intervention?
Mike MacKenzie SNP
No, thank you.
Jackson Carlaw Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Mike MacKenzie SNP
No, thank you.
Mike MacKenzie SNP
However, thanks to the democratic deficit in our constitutional arrangements—Smith or no Smith, Scotland act or no Scotland act—we are stuck with austerity. ...
Jackson Carlaw Con
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I wonder whether Mike MacKenzie intends to address himself to the terms of the motion that is before us for debate th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
As Mr Carlaw knows, that is not a point of order. However, the point has been made.