Committee
Meeting of the Commission 10 December 2015
10 Dec 2015 · S4 · Scottish Commission for Public Audit
Item of business
Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2016/17
Caroline Gardner
Watch on SPTV
It might be helpful if I remind the commission of the framework that governs our overall funding and fee-setting process and of the work that has been done so far. There are a couple of areas outstanding that, because of the procurement exercise, it will not be possible to complete until 2016. Under the legislation that set up Audit Scotland, we are entitled to impose charges for the work that we carry out on most of the bodies that we audit. Those charges are required to be set while having regard to the particular classes of bodies, or the individual bodies, that we audit. The aim is to break even, taking one year with another. The papers that the board has reviewed over the past year or so have explored what that means in practice and what issues need to be resolved as part of the review, as the chair of the board has said. One issue that we have reviewed is whether it is appropriate to continue to raise three quarters of our funding through fees with, broadly, the other 25 per cent coming from the consolidated fund with the oversight of the SCPA. The board’s decision was that it is appropriate to do that and that having that fee mechanism helps to ensure the accountability of auditors to the bodies that they audit while maintaining their independence. The second big area of work that has been done is how the board gets oversight of the balance between the amount that is raised and the amount that is spent in each sector, particularly in local government and the bodies in my area of responsibility; and, within my area, in central Government, health, further education and so on. As the chair has said, there have been some imbalances that have tended to increase over the life of an audit appointment. The latest figures, which we reported back to you in June alongside the presentation of our annual report and accounts, showed that there was a broad balance between local government and the rest but that health was slightly over-recovering and that there were some imbalances between the chargeable and non-chargeable central Government work. The board has taken the decision that it makes sense to fix those imbalances when we make the new audit appointments from next October onwards. 10:15 As for individual bodies, that is one of the issues that the board is still considering. We know from previous consultations that the bodies that we audit value predictability in their audit fee and are not keen for significant year-on-year moves. To bring each body into balance in terms of the amount that its audit cost and the amount that we charged would, given the variances, also make it difficult for us to manage our finances on a continuing basis. There is already some capacity in the system to reflect the quality of a body’s internal controls and governance; you might recall that we set an indicative fee for each body and, in the current system, the auditor and the audited body are able to vary the fee up or down by 10 per cent. Any variation beyond that has to be approved by Audit Scotland. We know that there are some imbalances between larger and smaller bodies because of the fixed cost, if you like, of auditing a small body, and we want to review that when we set the indicative fees for the new audit appointments. Over the past few months, we have also strengthened the governance of the balance between sectors, with the board agreeing a new policy that makes it very clear that the interpretation of taking one year with another should be that the figure is no more than 10 per cent up or down for each sector in a year, with the aim of its being resolved the following year. The board will formally review that annually to give itself an assurance about where it is going. As the chair has said, a lot of work has been done, but we cannot resolve some parts of the equation finally until we know the costs of the audit procurement exercise and make the new audit appointments next autumn.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Item 2 is Audit’s Scotland’s budget proposal for 2016-17. I welcome to the meeting from Audit Scotland, Ian Leitch, the board chair; Caroline Gardner, Audito...
Ian Leitch (Audit Scotland)
Thank you for the invitation to come along. This is the first time that I have appeared before the commission. I take the opportunity to thank my predecessor...
Caroline Gardner (Auditor General for Scotland)
The budget for 2016-17 has been prepared in the context of some significant uncertainties, including the outcome of the United Kingdom spending review and it...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. As you correctly say, members have some questions and I would like to start with a question about fees because that has been a recurring theme for...
Ian Leitch
Some of us, when we joined the board, started asking a lot of questions. To some extent, that may have delayed matters, because we have been probing into the...
The Convener
SNP
From what you are saying, I would deduce that we are at the start of a process rather than moving towards the end of it.
Ian Leitch
I do not agree with that; I think that we are fairly well through it. We have had working papers looking at how the sectoral imbalances have occurred histori...
The Convener
SNP
You mention the possibility of sectoral balance and so on. We would welcome a move towards a closer balance of fees and the related expenditure in each secto...
Ian Leitch
The accountable officer will answer that question.
Caroline Gardner
It might be helpful if I remind the commission of the framework that governs our overall funding and fee-setting process and of the work that has been done s...
The Convener
SNP
Your papers refer to a historical decision made when Audit Scotland was set up that ensured that the costs of best-value audits were broadly met by central G...
Caroline Gardner
I will ask Russell Frith to give you more detail, if you will find it useful, but the historical picture is that when local authorities had a legal responsib...
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
Like the convener, I am concerned that the fee strategy review has not been completed by now; indeed, regardless of what Mr Leitch has said, it seem that we ...
Ian Leitch
It will be completed for the audit appointments next autumn. I cannot speak for the time before I joined the board, but when I looked at this issue with coll...
Angus MacDonald (Falkirk East) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, panel. We are aware that the Wales Audit Office has recently reviewed its fee strategy. In its equivalent document, it has published the hourly...
Ian Leitch
I do not see a reason in principle why that cannot be done after the procurement exercise, although, plainly, we would not want to disclose our hand until we...
Caroline Gardner
After the procurement exercise has been completed, we will need to finalise how we recover the direct costs of audit, which are the costs of the work that is...
Diane McGiffen (Audit Scotland)
I, too, would offer reassurance. As you know, our objective is to deliver public audit in Scotland that promotes transparency, accountability and best value....
Angus MacDonald
SNP
Thank you for that. I am pleased to hear that you are looking at good practice around the globe, and it is good to know that you accept the need for transpar...
Caroline Gardner
I will ask Russell Frith to come in with the details on that, if I may. In broad terms, as we reported to the commission back in June in relation to our tota...
Russell Frith (Audit Scotland)
As part of our budget preparation, we do an allocation of budget costs across the sectors so that we can start to monitor the extent to which the projected i...
Angus MacDonald
SNP
Okay. Are those percentages detailed anywhere in the report?
Russell Frith
They are not explicitly in the report, but they are in one of the working papers that underlie the budget.
Angus MacDonald
SNP
Okay. May I suggest that they are included in the report in future?
Russell Frith
Certainly.
The Convener
SNP
It would be useful if the figures that you have just now could be supplied.
Caroline Gardner
We can certainly do that. The nearest reference to them is in the submission to the commission, in table 2 on page 12, which breaks down the income from char...
The Convener
SNP
I think that the commission is keen to see how far the costs are covered for the proportion of work that is done for the Accounts Commission and the proporti...
Caroline Gardner
We understand that entirely, and there is no problem in letting the commission have the breakdown. We can certainly build that into our agreement with the se...
John Pentland
Lab
Obviously, the commission is keen to explore the potential impact on Audit Scotland of the proposals in the Smith commission agreement and to ensure that Aud...