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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 19 November 2015

19 Nov 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Community Justice (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

I am pleased to contribute to this stage 1 debate and I am happy to reiterate Labour members’ support for the principles that lie behind the stage 1 report.

Much has been said around the chamber to suggest that members have reservations about some issues; I hope to visit some of those reservations in my concluding speech. It will be worth visiting some of the aspects that caused us to consider the need for a Community Justice (Scotland) Bill at this time.

Those aspects emanate largely from the Angiolini report on women offenders and Audit Scotland’s report “Reducing reoffending in Scotland”, both of which were published in 2012. Both reports independently raised concerns about a lack of strategic leadership and accountability, the impact of short-term funding on diverting workers away from their main task of delivering services for those who might reoffend, inconsistency in the standards of service, and lack of throughcare for offenders. In its briefing for the debate, Shelter Scotland made—I think appropriately—major play of the fact that the lack of appropriate housing has a significant effect on people who may reoffend.

The two reports also talked about a lack of strong leadership and said that statutory partners are not accountable to the criminal justice authorities. Audit Scotland made a specific comment about CJAs’ limited capacity to undertake the full range of work.

I am loth to use the term yet again this afternoon, but taken as a whole, those seem to be the characteristics of what many members have called a “cluttered landscape”, which sounds like a soft description of a work area that has too many agencies, organisations and authorities with too many relationships, leading to complexity and confusion for offenders and clients who might access the services. Rod Campbell said that what we are trying to deal with means that many agencies and authorities need to be involved. However, the description “cluttered” indicates that the landscape is unnecessarily untidy and disarranged, and that it might be described as a jumble. It is certainly irritating to those who try to organise a response to an important issue.

I was pleased to hear the minister say in his opening speech that a main aim of the bill is to reduce reoffending. Although that is a laudable aim, as has been mentioned by members across the chamber, it is difficult to gather evidence of what works in order that we can utilise efforts effectively.

Much has been said about judges and others not being aware of all the opportunities that might exist that could be used to divert people from offending. I also offer the suggestion that the absence of confidence in knowing which alternatives work for the offender or client group has as important an impact as any other criterion.

We have the second-highest levels of imprisonment, as many members have said. Unfortunately, we also have among the highest levels of alcohol and drug abuse. Many members have mentioned that the issues that cause and encourage reoffending are often outwith the confines of the bill. Unemployment, lack of education, the presence of poverty, absence of homes and—in truth—absence of hope are what drive people to return to prisons throughout their lives and end up losing the opportunity to play a full part in what we would call Scottish society.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
Good afternoon. The first item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14879, in the name of Paul Wheelhouse, on stage 1 of the Community Justice (Scotland) Bi...
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse) SNP
I am delighted to open the stage 1 debate on the principles of the Community Justice (Scotland) Bill. I thank the Justice Committee and its convener, Christi...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Con
I call Christine Grahame to speak on behalf of the Justice Committee. You have 10 minutes or thereby, please, Ms Grahame. 14:43
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Justice Committee, which led consideration of the bill at stage 1. I thank all who submitted evidence and...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Lab
On behalf of Labour members, I thank the committee clerks, the Scottish Parliament information centre, the witnesses who gave oral evidence and those who gav...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
Does Elaine Murray agree that if we fail in rehabilitating people whom we put in our prisons, we reduce community safety and safety for our population becaus...
Elaine Murray Lab
Absolutely, and that is acknowledged as one of the problems with the current criminal justice system. There is a revolving door, and people do not turn their...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
I welcome this stage 1 debate on the Community Justice (Scotland) Bill and I thank the many witnesses for their invaluable evidence. I also thank the Justice...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I want to point out that the reason may be that the definition in the previous legislation was about reducing reoffending. There was nothing about prevention...
Margaret Mitchell Con
I am not quite sure what point the member is trying to make, but if he was referring to short-term sentences, a good bit of analysis requires to be done and ...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I repeat the words of the convener, who said that the topic may be as dry as dust. I do not think that it is; it is about people and it is important. We have...
Margaret Mitchell Con
Will the member give way?
Christian Allard SNP
I ask the member to allow me to finish my point. The Glasgow community justice authority says that it wants to reduce reoffending through partnership. It sa...
Margaret Mitchell Con
Does the member agree that it is important that we factor into the definition of community justice the ability to prevent offending in the first place, throu...
Christian Allard SNP
I agree with the member, and I think that all members agree, that prevention is important. The question is whether it should be part of the bill that we are ...
Margaret McDougall (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to be taking part in the debate today. It is important that we get the Community Justice (Scotland) Bill right to support a reduction in reoffen...
Gil Paterson (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) SNP
I acknowledge the work of all those involved, past and present, across Scotland’s justice authorities. The proposed changes are not a reflection on their wor...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD) LD
I am pleased to be debating the Community Justice (Scotland) Bill. I have long campaigned for a more effective and compassionate justice system—one that redu...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate. Although there might be some concerns about the proposals, there seems, with some exceptions, to be lit...
David Stewart (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lab
I am pleased to speak in the debate. As a fresh-faced 24-year-old—unlike my current character—and newly qualified social worker in the early 1980s, I worked ...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I note David Stewart’s mention of his member’s bill on a victims commissioner and his and other members’ comments about changing what we call people. In my e...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I no longer sit on the Justice Committee, but my last appearance at that committee was for the first evidence session pertaining to the bill—in September, I ...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
When I got elected to Parliament in 2001, one of the biggest issues in my in-tray was the plan to close the prison in Peterhead. That prison had been opened ...
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
I echo Gil Paterson’s thanks to those who are currently doing a very good job in community justice. Those who work in our communities on trying to prevent pe...
Christine Grahame SNP
The minister is nodding.
Nigel Don SNP
Indeed. I return to the subject of funding, which Audit Scotland brought up in its November 2012 report “Reducing reoffending in Scotland”. Its recommendati...
Stewart Stevenson SNP
Does the member agree that grass roots is best? There is an old saying that of the greatest leaders it will be said, “We did it ourselves.” In other words, w...
Nigel Don SNP
I am absolutely sure that the member is right, although I probably will not be there to write the history. The point is that, although we can see ways in wh...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Ind
In the policy memorandum to the Community Justice (Scotland) Bill, the Scottish Government commits itself to reducing reoffending. It says: “Offending is a ...
Richard Lyle (Central Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I am delighted to speak in this important debate on the Community Justice (Scotland) Bill. I compliment Christine Grahame and her committee on their hard wor...