Committee
Justice Committee 03 November 2015
03 Nov 2015 · S4 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I welcome the chance to speak on the amendments to section 2. Section 2 sets out the circumstances under which mandatory public inquiries into certain deaths are to be held. The bill as it stands fails to include a number of Lord Cullen’s recommendations, as Margaret Mitchell said. I believe that when the state has the responsibility for someone’s health, safety and, ultimately, life, there should be an inquiry into what went wrong, should they die. We are talking about the most vulnerable in society, such as older people and patients with mental health problems. The Scottish Human Rights Commission has said that steps need to be taken “to ensure that systems of investigation meet the Article 2 requirements outlined above and to remedy the current gaps and confusion” in the system. I know that Richard Simpson did some sterling work on the Mental Health (Scotland) Bill. I also note that a review into how the deaths of those detained under mental health legislation are investigated will take place, but I understand that the timescale for that is up to three years. It is good to have the review, but I think that we need to deal with the issue in the interim. I will therefore support Margaret Mitchell’s amendments. Ms Mitchell’s amendment 2 is her main amendment in the group. I am concerned that it goes too far by including mental health patients who have been admitted to hospital voluntarily; my amendment 2A removes that requirement. My amendment 5A removes the Lord Advocate’s discretion not to hold an FAI if the patient who has been detained is receiving compulsory treatment. Similarly, my amendment 57 introduces a requirement to hold a mandatory FAI for patients with dementia who immediately before their death received prolonged treatment using psychotropic medication. That type of medication causes sedation, confusion and movement difficulty. Overuse of those drugs in such situations has been implicated in an increased risk of stroke. A number of organisations, including the Mental Welfare Commission, have raised concerns about the widespread use of those drugs in care home settings. The most vulnerable people in our society deserve our attention. There have been a number of high-profile cases in which families have raised concerns about the circumstances of what appears to be death from natural causes. It should be the responsibility of the state to investigate and learn, in an open and transparent way, from any mistakes made. My amendments 56 and 58 are consequential.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Item 2 is stage 2 proceedings on the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc (Scotland) Bill. I remind members that our aim is to complete stage...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 1, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, is grouped with amendments 56, 2, 2A, 57, 3 to 5, 5A, 6, 58 and 7.
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
During stage 1 consideration, the committee came to the conclusion that there was no need for mandatory fatal accident inquiries into the deaths of those who...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
I welcome the chance to speak on the amendments to section 2. Section 2 sets out the circumstances under which mandatory public inquiries into certain death...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I have listened carefully to what both members have said. Margaret Mitchell referred to Lord Cullen’s report, but I think that it is fair to point out that ...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Ind
For me, the issue is about the relationship between the state and the individual. It is also about perception, and I think that any member of the public who ...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Mr Campbell is absolutely right: the Lord Advocate has the discretion to have an inquiry. More to the point, I do not think that the Lord Advocate would make...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
I, too, have a lot of sympathy for the amendments in the names of Margaret Mitchell and Alison McInnes. On what Roddy Campbell said, having the discretion to...
The Convener
SNP
I am sympathetic to the arguments but I take a fairly plain view of things: something is either mandatory or not mandatory. As has been explained, there is d...
The Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs (Paul Wheelhouse)
SNP
The group includes amendments in the name of Margaret Mitchell that would require mandatory FAIs into the deaths in hospitals of patients receiving compulsor...
The Convener
SNP
It is really for Margaret Mitchell to wind up, but Alison McInnes is writing something, so I wonder whether she wants to respond to any of that, first.
Alison McInnes
LD
I am grateful for the opportunity to do that. I am also grateful to the minister for the assurances that he has put on the record today, particularly in rela...
The Convener
SNP
You do not need to say anything about that at the moment.
Alison McInnes
LD
Okay.
The Convener
SNP
Hold us in suspense on that. Margaret Mitchell will now wind up and press or seek to withdraw amendment 1.
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I will address the stigma that the minister suggested will somehow occur if there were mandatory FAIs for detained mental health patients. I refer the minist...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) McDougall, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotlan...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 4, Abstentions 0. Amendment 1 agreed to.
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 52, in the name of Alison McInnes, is grouped with amendments 53 and 54.
Alison McInnes
LD
This group of amendments also refers to section 2. The main amendment is amendment 53, which introduces the requirement to hold a mandatory FAI as a result o...
Roderick Campbell
SNP
I have listened to what Alison McInnes has said, but we need to bear in mind that we already have the Looked After Children (Scotland) Regulations 2009, whic...
Paul Wheelhouse
SNP
This group of amendments in the name of Alison McInnes seeks to require mandatory FAIs into the deaths of children who were looked after by a local authority...
Alison McInnes
LD
I caution the minister against making a case on the basis of the resource impact, because I think that that is the weakest argument that can be made. If a nu...
The Convener
SNP
I agree with you. I do not like to hear resources being brought in—the argument should be based on the principle.
Alison McInnes
LD
That aside, the minister has set out a detailed reason for not supporting amendments 52, 53 and 54. I considered them to be probing amendments to test the Go...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 2A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) McDougall, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotlan...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 4, Abstentions 0. Amendment 2A agreed to.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 2, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.