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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 03 November 2015

03 Nov 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Trident
Baker, Claire Lab Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

The member will know that Jeremy Corbyn, the leader, has said that we will have a review of defence. As I said at the beginning of my speech, the Labour Party is a broad church—I will not hide from that. Kezia Dugdale made the decision at the weekend that we would have a debate in Scotland, and we have a clear position in today’s debate.

Since 1998, all the UK’s air-delivered nuclear weapons have been withdrawn and dismantled. There has been a reduction of our nuclear forces by well over 50 per cent since the cold war peak, which is to be welcomed. A decision not to proceed with the renewal of Trident gives impetus to our commitment to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and presents the opportunity to go further.

Our decision to cancel the renewal of Trident is not without significant consequences for the workforce and the communities who rely on the jobs. It would be unfair to the workforce and to workers’ families to deny the reality of the challenges that they would face. I grew up in Fife and I know the impact of a key industry disappearing from a region’s economic landscape. We should not underestimate what cancellation would mean for the communities of Faslane and Coulport.

The importance of committing to a strong defence diversification strategy was made clear at the Labour conference. There are thousands of Trident-related jobs in the defence sector in Scotland and more jobs are at stake in the rest of the UK. The workers are highly skilled in mechanical, engineering and scientific disciplines. It is vital that their skills are not lost, as they are important to the individuals and to our economy.

During the Parliament’s most recent debate on Trident, Jean Urquhart made important points about jobs. She was right to press the cabinet secretary on the issue when she said:

“The debate over jobs at Faslane is a serious one and it inhibits the argument for getting rid of Trident. Could we start planning now, rather than making the mistake of arguing about whether we are going to spend the money on nursing and public services or improving the traditional forces”.—[Official Report, 8 October 2015; c 38.]

The concern that defence diversification is difficult is a legitimate one. Diversification has not always delivered as much as we have aimed for it to deliver. That is why we propose the establishment of defence diversification agencies at UK and Scotland levels. The challenges for the affected area and industries will be significant, and a task force or regional response would not be sufficient to meet them.

We must ensure that the skilled and experienced workforce continues to make a significant contribution to our economy, inside or outside the defence sector. We have a responsibility to those workers, and we should support the trade unions in seeking assurances on employment. Our amendment aims to be helpful by expanding the debate to include the reality of what the decision would mean for those communities, and I welcome the cabinet secretary’s indication that the SNP will support it at decision time.

As always in such a debate, it is important to realise that the vast majority of people hope for the same outcome; all that we disagree about is the means of getting there. There is a deep-seated desire both inside and outside the Labour Party to see the end of nuclear weapons, and although disagreements may arise regarding the pace and scale of disarmament, it is wise to remember that we are all reaching for the same goal.

That is one reason why the Conservative amendment is disappointing. I feel that it is unfair to claim that those who support the renewal of Trident are the only ones who are willing to stand up and defend our country. That argument does a disservice to all involved. It is an accusation that we would not level at countries that have a defence system but do not have nuclear weapons, such as Australia, Canada and other European nations, and it should not be levelled at those who are against the renewal of Trident in Britain.

Opposing the renewal of Trident is not an immediate threat to our national security. Indeed, if we want to defend our country, there is a strong argument that it would be wiser to invest in equipment that fits us out for the threats that we will face in the future—equipment that is more suited to emerging technologies—rather than spending billions on missiles that we all hope will never be fired. That is why, in our amendment, we call for defence diversification and highlight the need to continue to deliver a UK defence sector that is equipped to deal with the world and the potential threats of the future.

I grew up during the 1970s and 1980s. I remember that my first visit to London was to take part in a CND rally that was attended by more than 300,000 people and which ended in Hyde park. It was my first real political act and decision, and it was a cause that I was very passionate about. I was the youngest on an overnight bus travelling down from Fife, and it was full of Labour Party members, including our previous MEP Alex Falconer, Communist Party members, political activists and my family. That year, in London, there was a huge show of support for the public’s rejection of the nuclear arms race.

That movement of ordinary men and women was important in changing the terms of the public debate, and progress was made with the subsequent global reduction in nuclear capacity and the focus on diplomacy and international negotiation. Scottish Labour has a clear position opposing the renewal of Trident and we will work with others to achieve what we seek.

I move amendment S4M-14681.3, to leave out from “believes” to end and insert:

“recognises the number of workers in the British defence system in Scotland and throughout the UK whose employment is linked to Trident-related activities and that firm commitments must be made to the trade unions on the retention of defence workers’ jobs; believes that, in the event of the cancellation of Trident, the establishment of defence diversification agencies at Scottish and UK levels is essential to deliver a strong defence diversification strategy that provides workers with high quality employment through the retention of skills developed in the sector, while delivering a UK defence sector equipped to deal with the world and dangers that it possesses, and calls on the UK Government not to renew Trident.”

14:37  
References in this contribution

Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14681, in the name of Keith Brown, on Trident, welfare or warfare. I call Keith Brown to speak to and mov...
The Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Keith Brown) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. The Scottish Parliament, as you know, has debated nuclear weapons on a number of occasions over recent years. In the light of t...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I agree with the cabinet secretary on that point, but can he confirm that it is his policy that the money that would be saved would be spent on defence only?
Keith Brown SNP
No. We have previously mentioned the impact of the Trident programme on conventional defence spending, and I think that it would help if we were not spending...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We are four and a half years into this session. For three and a half years of it we have had follow-on debates, which means that when one item of business fi...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I suspect that this debate was scheduled with other events this weekend in mind, but I am happy to open for Scottish Labour. Labour debated many issues at o...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Claire Baker Lab
I thank the member, but I am trying to make progress. I might be able to let him in later. There is on-going uncertainty over the cost of Trident. At a time...
The Minister for Transport and Islands (Derek Mackay) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Claire Baker Lab
If it is brief.
Derek Mackay SNP
Claire Baker talked about the position that we are in now. If the UK Labour Party was elected to office in the UK, would Labour renew nuclear weapons—yes or no?
Claire Baker Lab
The member will know that Jeremy Corbyn, the leader, has said that we will have a review of defence. As I said at the beginning of my speech, the Labour Part...
John Lamont (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
I stand up to defend what members on the SNP benches would have us believe is the indefensible. According to the Scottish Government, anyone who advocates th...
Derek Mackay SNP
I ask John Lamont, as a good Conservative, to say at what point nuclear weapons, immoral as they are, would become too expensive even for him.
John Lamont Con
The effect and benefit of having a nuclear deterrent cannot be quantified in terms of cost. A nuclear deterrent is something that our country needs, not only...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind) Ind
I thank the cabinet secretary for bringing this debate to the chamber. Trident, and the future of nuclear weapons in this country, is an important and contro...
Christina McKelvie (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) SNP
“Bairns not bombs”, “welfare not warfare”—those are handy catchphrases that can help to focus people’s minds behind a concept. Like headlines in a newspaper,...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
While the member is going through statistics, will she tell us what the only country ever to unilaterally give up its nuclear deterrent was and say what happ...
Christina McKelvie SNP
I think that I would rather talk about what we would spend £160 billion on in this country. My point that the cost is of no consequence to some has just bee...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
At the weekend, the Labour party conference voted overwhelmingly to oppose the renewal of the Trident nuclear weapons system. I am proud of my party and my l...
Derek Mackay SNP
It is not new.
Neil Findlay Lab
It is not new, says Mr Mackay. I will crack the jokes, if he does not mind.
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
Will Neil Findlay give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
One at a time, please. Mr Findlay has the floor.
Neil Findlay Lab
It showed us at our best and, just like the SNP, we will now use our position to seek to influence not only the UK Government but the UK Labour Party’s polic...
Patrick Harvie Green
I warmly congratulate Mr Findlay and his colleagues on the strong decision that was taken at their conference at the weekend. However, over the past couple o...
Neil Findlay Lab
We know Mr Harvie’s position on that, and the Labour Party does not take that position at the moment. That is me answering him straight. The task of the gro...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I congratulate all the Labour Party members in Scotland on taking the decision that they took at the weekend. Will Neil Findlay address the fear that some pe...
Neil Findlay Lab
I absolutely accept that, but we must continue with our campaign. I stretch out my hand of friendship to Mr Allard. We have been in the same campaign for som...
Jim Hume (South Scotland) (LD) LD
For the past 30 years, my party has been in favour of maintaining a minimum nuclear deterrent. I should be clear right at the start that the only reason why ...