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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 03 November 2015

03 Nov 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Trident
Baker, Claire Lab Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV

I thank the member, but I am trying to make progress. I might be able to let him in later.

There is on-going uncertainty over the cost of Trident. At a time of severe financial constraint, the project would cost billions of pounds over its lifetime—the SNP has spent that money many times over on different promises.

We must also acknowledge that cancelling the renewal of Trident will have direct consequences for our British workforce. I will come on to that later.

In arguing for a halt to the renewal of Trident, we need to consider the political and global reality of the world in which we live. We live in times that are very different from, and arguably much more complex than, those of the cold war. No one would deny that Britain and Scotland need strong defence forces, but the question is whether Trident is part of such a future.

The immediate threat no longer comes from big nation states having a public and clearly defined stand-off; the threat is increasingly from terrorism that is targeted and hidden. What does our country’s nuclear capacity mean to a group that attacks without having a Government, a country or an army behind it? That is the threat of the future, and it is only right that our defence and intelligence community is able to adapt to the ever-changing dangers of the world. I accept that the future is unpredictable and we live in uncertain times, but can the future threat to the UK be addressed with nuclear weapons?

International diplomacy is about reducing nuclear weapons and discouraging other countries from developing nuclear capability. We have made progress. When it was in government, the UK Labour Party reduced nuclear weapons while playing a significant international role. The United Kingdom has signed up to gradual, negotiated disarmament in line with other nations. We should recognise the steps that have been taken and the position that we are in now compared with the position 10 or 20 years ago.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14681, in the name of Keith Brown, on Trident, welfare or warfare. I call Keith Brown to speak to and mov...
The Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities (Keith Brown) SNP
Thank you, Presiding Officer. The Scottish Parliament, as you know, has debated nuclear weapons on a number of occasions over recent years. In the light of t...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I agree with the cabinet secretary on that point, but can he confirm that it is his policy that the money that would be saved would be spent on defence only?
Keith Brown SNP
No. We have previously mentioned the impact of the Trident programme on conventional defence spending, and I think that it would help if we were not spending...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We are four and a half years into this session. For three and a half years of it we have had follow-on debates, which means that when one item of business fi...
Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab
I suspect that this debate was scheduled with other events this weekend in mind, but I am happy to open for Scottish Labour. Labour debated many issues at o...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green) Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Claire Baker Lab
I thank the member, but I am trying to make progress. I might be able to let him in later. There is on-going uncertainty over the cost of Trident. At a time...
The Minister for Transport and Islands (Derek Mackay) SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Claire Baker Lab
If it is brief.
Derek Mackay SNP
Claire Baker talked about the position that we are in now. If the UK Labour Party was elected to office in the UK, would Labour renew nuclear weapons—yes or no?
Claire Baker Lab
The member will know that Jeremy Corbyn, the leader, has said that we will have a review of defence. As I said at the beginning of my speech, the Labour Part...
John Lamont (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Con
I stand up to defend what members on the SNP benches would have us believe is the indefensible. According to the Scottish Government, anyone who advocates th...
Derek Mackay SNP
I ask John Lamont, as a good Conservative, to say at what point nuclear weapons, immoral as they are, would become too expensive even for him.
John Lamont Con
The effect and benefit of having a nuclear deterrent cannot be quantified in terms of cost. A nuclear deterrent is something that our country needs, not only...
John Wilson (Central Scotland) (Ind) Ind
I thank the cabinet secretary for bringing this debate to the chamber. Trident, and the future of nuclear weapons in this country, is an important and contro...
Christina McKelvie (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) SNP
“Bairns not bombs”, “welfare not warfare”—those are handy catchphrases that can help to focus people’s minds behind a concept. Like headlines in a newspaper,...
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
While the member is going through statistics, will she tell us what the only country ever to unilaterally give up its nuclear deterrent was and say what happ...
Christina McKelvie SNP
I think that I would rather talk about what we would spend £160 billion on in this country. My point that the cost is of no consequence to some has just bee...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
At the weekend, the Labour party conference voted overwhelmingly to oppose the renewal of the Trident nuclear weapons system. I am proud of my party and my l...
Derek Mackay SNP
It is not new.
Neil Findlay Lab
It is not new, says Mr Mackay. I will crack the jokes, if he does not mind.
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
Will Neil Findlay give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
One at a time, please. Mr Findlay has the floor.
Neil Findlay Lab
It showed us at our best and, just like the SNP, we will now use our position to seek to influence not only the UK Government but the UK Labour Party’s polic...
Patrick Harvie Green
I warmly congratulate Mr Findlay and his colleagues on the strong decision that was taken at their conference at the weekend. However, over the past couple o...
Neil Findlay Lab
We know Mr Harvie’s position on that, and the Labour Party does not take that position at the moment. That is me answering him straight. The task of the gro...
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP) SNP
I congratulate all the Labour Party members in Scotland on taking the decision that they took at the weekend. Will Neil Findlay address the fear that some pe...
Neil Findlay Lab
I absolutely accept that, but we must continue with our campaign. I stretch out my hand of friendship to Mr Allard. We have been in the same campaign for som...
Jim Hume (South Scotland) (LD) LD
For the past 30 years, my party has been in favour of maintaining a minimum nuclear deterrent. I should be clear right at the start that the only reason why ...