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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 07 October 2015

07 Oct 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fiscal Framework
Chisholm, Malcolm Lab Edinburgh Northern and Leith Watch on SPTV

I absolutely agree with that.

The block grant adjustment is a key issue for the whole fiscal framework, and the Finance Committee has emphasised that the calculation of the block grant must be “open and transparent”, which clearly it is not now and never has been. We need the right initial adjustment to the block grant and then, crucially, fair indexation. That has already been established for our initial taxes. Of course, the key issue is income tax, and it seems that the UK Government has accepted the Holtham method, which indexes to the growth in the UK tax base. However, the committee raises the interesting question whether that should be per capita growth in the UK tax base and has asked the Government to look not only at that but at the number of higher-rate taxpayers increasing faster in England than it is in Scotland. I am glad to hear that that analysis is being carried out: it will be interesting to see the results.

The block grant adjustment relates to no-detriment principle 1. Far more problematic is no-detriment principle 2, which, according to the Finance Committee, should apply only to a major and calculable impact of the budget of the other Government. We are absolutely clear that it should not relate to tax competition, in the context of which the example of air passenger duty is often highlighted. I am reassured that George Osborne appears to agree. There might not be too many issues on which most people in the Scottish Parliament will agree with Mr Osborne, but during his appearance at the Treasury Committee earlier this year, he said that tax competition is something that should be allowed. In fact, he also said that the whole principle of no detriment relates principally to the block grant, so I am modestly reassured by his comments in that respect.

Another main theme of the report is flexibility. Concerns have been expressed that the UK Government might want to constrain this Parliament’s fiscal flexibility, just as concern has been expressed that it appears to be trying to constrain our social security flexibility in some of the provisions in the Scotland Bill. I agree with the report that we must have

“flexibility to pursue distinct fiscal policies consistent with the overall UK fiscal framework”

but, as the cabinet secretary said, the policies should not need to mirror each other.

The committee also pointed out that we should have flexibility on how we spend any tax surplus, if such we should have. We should not really need the UK Government to dictate what we do with that. Although the committee has recommended a debt rule in the medium and long terms, that rule should not necessarily be the same as the UK’s. The theme of flexibility on a wide range of issues runs through the report.

Finally, and perhaps most important, is borrowing. There is borrowing to cover cyclical volatility and revenues, and as Gavin Brown suggested, there is probably quite a lot of agreement about that, although we do not know the details. Far more contentious is capital borrowing, because one of the main differences between the Scottish Government’s economic policy and that of the UK—and, indeed, the Labour Party—is the greater emphasis on the positive role of capital borrowing. We are prepared to do more of that than the UK Government is currently countenancing. The committee recommends

“prudential capital borrowing ... on a statutory basis”.

That is an important recommendation

Related to that is moral hazard. John McLaren and Angus Armstrong were interesting in that regard. John McLaren said that there should be free access to capital markets for borrowing. Dr Armstrong supported that, but he emphasised that responsibility and liability need to be aligned and said that

“It would be anomalous for one government to control its tax and spending and another government to have ultimate responsibility for the debt that arose.”

That is the trade-off. We need prudential capital borrowing on a statutory basis but we clearly have to take full responsibility for repayment of the debt.

My seven minutes are up, so I conclude by agreeing with the Scottish Government that the fiscal framework must be fair. I hope that everybody in the chamber agrees. From the report, I draw the conclusion that an unfair fiscal framework could torpedo fiscal devolution, so we must have a fair fiscal framework before we agree the Scotland Bill.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14432, in the name of Kenneth Gibson, on Scotland’s fiscal framework. I call on Kenneth Gibson to speak t...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
One of the key priorities of the Finance Committee throughout the current session has been to ensure effective parliamentary scrutiny of the implementation a...
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
I think that what was said about no detriment is important. Paragraph 174 contains the unanimous recommendation that there should be an independent arbiter b...
Kenneth Gibson SNP
That should be the case. One of the things that came through strongly in the evidence that we took was that the Treasury is sometimes quite byzantine in the ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
I am grateful to the members of Finance Committee for their report on Scotland’s fiscal framework. The written submissions and oral sessions all underline th...
Alex Salmond SNP
In line with the evidence and the unanimous recommendation of the committee, will the Scottish Government regard the establishment of an independent arbitrat...
John Swinney SNP
That would be an essential part of the process. Independent arbitration gives us confidence that, in a necessarily adversarial relationship with Her Majesty’...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
Everybody loves a good mystery. There is nothing quite like a page-turner and those moments of dramatic suspense to keep a reader completely engaged. Finally...
John Swinney SNP
I understand the importance of parliamentary scrutiny and I am doing my level best to inform the debate—hence my response to the Finance Committee and my con...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I am happy to do so but, in the time that I have been allocated, it will not be possible to do that justice. I am happy to engage with the cabinet secretary,...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie Lab
I think that I am in my final minute.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can allow you time if you wish.
Jackie Baillie Lab
I am happy to give way.
John Mason SNP
Does the member agree that having an independent arbiter would really take a change of culture and thinking at Westminster? Has she seen any sign that that m...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I absolutely agree that it would take a change of culture. In fact, a lot of the committee’s report is imbued with exactly that. I am not a mind reader as to...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank the committee clerks for all their hard work on the inquiry and I thank all the witnesses who gave written and oral evidence. We had some excellent w...
John Swinney SNP
Will Mr Brown help me by dropping me some comments after the debate on what type of information he believes would be helpful? I would appreciate it if he dro...
Gavin Brown Con
I am happy to drop the Deputy First Minister that note. Let us take revenue borrowing, which I know from the communiqué was one of the issues that were disc...
Alex Salmond SNP
Let us say for a second that Jackie Baillie’s promotion of Gavin Brown had come into effect and that he was a Treasury minister, but let us say that he was a...
Gavin Brown Con
In relation to the former First Minister’s comments, I am not sure whether I have less chance of being a Treasury minister or of being a Scottish Government ...
Alex Salmond SNP
Thank goodness the member is not a minister.
Gavin Brown Con
If the former First Minister had spent more time reading the report than he has on the Starship Enterprise, he might have been perfectly aware that I dissent...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Mr Brown, I can give you the time back for the interventions.
Gavin Brown Con
I am grateful for that. I have to say that the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill that the Scottish Government has put forward is disappointing and a bit tooth...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We move to the open debate. Speeches can be of seven minutes or so, and I still have generous time in hand for interventions. 15:22
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
While listening to Jackie Baillie’s speech, I was interested by her trying to conjure the image of a mystery thriller. Unfortunately, during the course of he...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
The report contains many important recommendations, all of which I agree with. I suppose that the most controversial part relates to the Fiscal Commission, a...
Mark McDonald SNP
Malcolm Chisholm and I are both members of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee so does he agree that, on further scrutiny, it takes two to tango and th...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
I absolutely agree with that. The block grant adjustment is a key issue for the whole fiscal framework, and the Finance Committee has emphasised that the ca...