Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 07 October 2015
07 Oct 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fiscal Framework
I thank the committee clerks for all their hard work on the inquiry and I thank all the witnesses who gave written and oral evidence. We had some excellent witnesses, and the report is a pretty impressive piece of work. I also congratulate the convener of the committee on his speech, which reflected pretty fairly the conclusions that we reached.
The first point that I will make is about transparency. I entirely accept the Deputy First Minister’s argument that it is not desirable and probably not achievable to give a running commentary on all the negotiations and discussions between Governments, but I would like him to address, perhaps in his closing speech, whether there is something between a running commentary and the current position. Although the communiqués are clearly intended not to tell us terribly much—I suspect that that is pure protocol—I cannot help but think that there is some possibility that we could get a bit more information than we currently get, so that Parliament and the Finance Committee in particular have a slightly clearer idea of where we are going.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14432, in the name of Kenneth Gibson, on Scotland’s fiscal framework. I call on Kenneth Gibson to speak t...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
SNP
One of the key priorities of the Finance Committee throughout the current session has been to ensure effective parliamentary scrutiny of the implementation a...
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
SNP
I think that what was said about no detriment is important. Paragraph 174 contains the unanimous recommendation that there should be an independent arbiter b...
Kenneth Gibson
SNP
That should be the case. One of the things that came through strongly in the evidence that we took was that the Treasury is sometimes quite byzantine in the ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney)
SNP
I am grateful to the members of Finance Committee for their report on Scotland’s fiscal framework. The written submissions and oral sessions all underline th...
Alex Salmond
SNP
In line with the evidence and the unanimous recommendation of the committee, will the Scottish Government regard the establishment of an independent arbitrat...
John Swinney
SNP
That would be an essential part of the process. Independent arbitration gives us confidence that, in a necessarily adversarial relationship with Her Majesty’...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Lab
Everybody loves a good mystery. There is nothing quite like a page-turner and those moments of dramatic suspense to keep a reader completely engaged. Finally...
John Swinney
SNP
I understand the importance of parliamentary scrutiny and I am doing my level best to inform the debate—hence my response to the Finance Committee and my con...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I am happy to do so but, in the time that I have been allocated, it will not be possible to do that justice. I am happy to engage with the cabinet secretary,...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I think that I am in my final minute.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I can allow you time if you wish.
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I am happy to give way.
John Mason
SNP
Does the member agree that having an independent arbiter would really take a change of culture and thinking at Westminster? Has she seen any sign that that m...
Jackie Baillie
Lab
I absolutely agree that it would take a change of culture. In fact, a lot of the committee’s report is imbued with exactly that. I am not a mind reader as to...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I thank the committee clerks for all their hard work on the inquiry and I thank all the witnesses who gave written and oral evidence. We had some excellent w...
John Swinney
SNP
Will Mr Brown help me by dropping me some comments after the debate on what type of information he believes would be helpful? I would appreciate it if he dro...
Gavin Brown
Con
I am happy to drop the Deputy First Minister that note. Let us take revenue borrowing, which I know from the communiqué was one of the issues that were disc...
Alex Salmond
SNP
Let us say for a second that Jackie Baillie’s promotion of Gavin Brown had come into effect and that he was a Treasury minister, but let us say that he was a...
Gavin Brown
Con
In relation to the former First Minister’s comments, I am not sure whether I have less chance of being a Treasury minister or of being a Scottish Government ...
Alex Salmond
SNP
Thank goodness the member is not a minister.
Gavin Brown
Con
If the former First Minister had spent more time reading the report than he has on the Starship Enterprise, he might have been perfectly aware that I dissent...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Mr Brown, I can give you the time back for the interventions.
Gavin Brown
Con
I am grateful for that. I have to say that the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill that the Scottish Government has put forward is disappointing and a bit tooth...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We move to the open debate. Speeches can be of seven minutes or so, and I still have generous time in hand for interventions. 15:22
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
SNP
While listening to Jackie Baillie’s speech, I was interested by her trying to conjure the image of a mystery thriller. Unfortunately, during the course of he...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Lab
The report contains many important recommendations, all of which I agree with. I suppose that the most controversial part relates to the Fiscal Commission, a...
Mark McDonald
SNP
Malcolm Chisholm and I are both members of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee so does he agree that, on further scrutiny, it takes two to tango and th...
Malcolm Chisholm
Lab
I absolutely agree with that. The block grant adjustment is a key issue for the whole fiscal framework, and the Finance Committee has emphasised that the ca...