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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 07 October 2015

07 Oct 2015 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Fiscal Framework

I am happy to do so but, in the time that I have been allocated, it will not be possible to do that justice. I am happy to engage with the cabinet secretary, but the problem that I have is that his communiqués are so bereft of detail that it is difficult to know what discussions are taking place.

I recall that the cabinet secretary made a vague commitment to set things out in the autumn. My central heating is now on and autumn has arrived, but we are no closer to getting the detailed information that would enable a dialogue to take place between the Opposition parties in this Parliament and the cabinet secretary.

I am curious to know whether the cabinet secretary agreed to the lack of transparency. Will he now publish information on the discussions that have taken place to date? When does he expect the discussions to conclude? He has tied the fiscal framework to the Scotland Bill and the legislative consent motion, so are we to expect it after the Scotland Bill has been passed? Will an LCM run alongside the Scotland Bill? It would be useful for the Parliament to understand what his timetable is.

The Finance Committee’s report makes a number of comments about transparency. It points to a need for much stronger and more transparent parliamentary scrutiny of intergovernmental relations, following the Smith agreement. In evidence to the committee, Professor McEwen observed that most

“intergovernmental exchange continues to take place below the radar”,

which

“raises questions about the capacity of the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament to give effective scrutiny”.

Similarly, the Royal Society of Edinburgh stated that, typically, intergovernmental relations in the UK

“have been ad hoc, informal and undertaken on an issue-by-issue basis with little opportunity for public scrutiny.”

The RSE supports the development, as I do, of a much stronger joint ministerial committee system, with clearer guidelines, more regular meetings, enhanced transparency and, indeed, publicity.

Professor McEwen argued that there needs to be a degree of transparency prior to meetings of the formal institutions, so that the Parliament has the opportunity to contribute its views in advance. Likewise, there needs to be a degree of transparency in the aftermath of meetings, to allow for parliamentary scrutiny of discussions. It is fairly clear that there is a need for transparency and better scrutiny, yet the UK and Scottish Governments appear to be making backroom deals, cutting out both Parliament and people, subverting the democratic process and placing further devolution in jeopardy. That is simply not good enough.

I appreciate that negotiations will be sensitive, but there is a precedent for the publication of minutes and agendas. Mr Swinney will remember that the two Governments previously agreed to provide the minutes of JEC meetings to the Scottish Parliament and the UK Parliament. Minutes were received for the JEC meetings of 27 September 2011 and 18 June 2012, and papers were supplied in advance of the September 2011 meeting on an exceptional basis. If that could be done then, why can it not be done now?

I turn to the Finance Committee’s deliberations on an independent arbiter. A number of witnesses agreed that there is a need to establish an arbiter—a genuinely independent body that is responsible for advising on the calculations that underpin the system and for adjudicating in the event of any disputes between the Governments that they cannot resolve between themselves. I find myself in the strange but happy position of agreeing with the former First Minister on this point. The cabinet secretary also agrees that there is a case for an independent arbiter. I welcome that.

I look forward to scrutinising the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill, because Labour members do not believe that the proposals are ambitious enough or providing sufficient independence.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-14432, in the name of Kenneth Gibson, on Scotland’s fiscal framework. I call on Kenneth Gibson to speak t...
Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) SNP
One of the key priorities of the Finance Committee throughout the current session has been to ensure effective parliamentary scrutiny of the implementation a...
Alex Salmond (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) SNP
I think that what was said about no detriment is important. Paragraph 174 contains the unanimous recommendation that there should be an independent arbiter b...
Kenneth Gibson SNP
That should be the case. One of the things that came through strongly in the evidence that we took was that the Treasury is sometimes quite byzantine in the ...
The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy (John Swinney) SNP
I am grateful to the members of Finance Committee for their report on Scotland’s fiscal framework. The written submissions and oral sessions all underline th...
Alex Salmond SNP
In line with the evidence and the unanimous recommendation of the committee, will the Scottish Government regard the establishment of an independent arbitrat...
John Swinney SNP
That would be an essential part of the process. Independent arbitration gives us confidence that, in a necessarily adversarial relationship with Her Majesty’...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Lab
Everybody loves a good mystery. There is nothing quite like a page-turner and those moments of dramatic suspense to keep a reader completely engaged. Finally...
John Swinney SNP
I understand the importance of parliamentary scrutiny and I am doing my level best to inform the debate—hence my response to the Finance Committee and my con...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I am happy to do so but, in the time that I have been allocated, it will not be possible to do that justice. I am happy to engage with the cabinet secretary,...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie Lab
I think that I am in my final minute.
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can allow you time if you wish.
Jackie Baillie Lab
I am happy to give way.
John Mason SNP
Does the member agree that having an independent arbiter would really take a change of culture and thinking at Westminster? Has she seen any sign that that m...
Jackie Baillie Lab
I absolutely agree that it would take a change of culture. In fact, a lot of the committee’s report is imbued with exactly that. I am not a mind reader as to...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con) Con
I thank the committee clerks for all their hard work on the inquiry and I thank all the witnesses who gave written and oral evidence. We had some excellent w...
John Swinney SNP
Will Mr Brown help me by dropping me some comments after the debate on what type of information he believes would be helpful? I would appreciate it if he dro...
Gavin Brown Con
I am happy to drop the Deputy First Minister that note. Let us take revenue borrowing, which I know from the communiqué was one of the issues that were disc...
Alex Salmond SNP
Let us say for a second that Jackie Baillie’s promotion of Gavin Brown had come into effect and that he was a Treasury minister, but let us say that he was a...
Gavin Brown Con
In relation to the former First Minister’s comments, I am not sure whether I have less chance of being a Treasury minister or of being a Scottish Government ...
Alex Salmond SNP
Thank goodness the member is not a minister.
Gavin Brown Con
If the former First Minister had spent more time reading the report than he has on the Starship Enterprise, he might have been perfectly aware that I dissent...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
Mr Brown, I can give you the time back for the interventions.
Gavin Brown Con
I am grateful for that. I have to say that the Scottish Fiscal Commission Bill that the Scottish Government has put forward is disappointing and a bit tooth...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
We move to the open debate. Speeches can be of seven minutes or so, and I still have generous time in hand for interventions. 15:22
Mark McDonald (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) SNP
While listening to Jackie Baillie’s speech, I was interested by her trying to conjure the image of a mystery thriller. Unfortunately, during the course of he...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
The report contains many important recommendations, all of which I agree with. I suppose that the most controversial part relates to the Fiscal Commission, a...
Mark McDonald SNP
Malcolm Chisholm and I are both members of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee so does he agree that, on further scrutiny, it takes two to tango and th...
Malcolm Chisholm Lab
I absolutely agree with that. The block grant adjustment is a key issue for the whole fiscal framework, and the Finance Committee has emphasised that the ca...