Committee
Justice Committee 29 September 2015
29 Sep 2015 · S4 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I will deal first with amendments 111 and 112, both of which are relatively minor, before turning to amendment 37 and the proposed definition of arrest. Amendment 111 aims to improve readability. Amendment 112 clarifies the meaning of an offence not punishable by imprisonment. Section 1(2) sets out an extra test that has to be met before a constable can arrest someone without a warrant if the offence that the person is suspected of committing is “not punishable by imprisonment”. The phrase is meant to capture minor offences for which nobody would ever be sent to prison. On its own, however, the phrase could be taken to mean that the suspect whom the constable intended to arrest would not be liable to be imprisoned. Children, for example, are never liable to be imprisoned. Amendment 112 makes it clear that, in deciding whether section 1(2) applies, it is the nature of the offence that is to be considered, and not the identity of the suspect. I turn to John Pentland’s amendment 37, which would add a new section to provide a definition of arrest for the purposes of part 1. I am not persuaded that amendment 37 would do any good; indeed, it could have the opposite effect. Definitions are there to clarify the meaning of the words and expressions used in the bill. The proposed definition of arrest would not make the meaning of part 1 more certain. 10:45 The proposed definition is in two parts. The first part refers to “depriving a person of liberty of movement.” That phrase is open to interpretation and challenge. For example, would it cover those who were released on investigative liberation or on an undertaking or bail with conditions as to the places where they were permitted to go? The second part of the proposed definition is that arrest means “taking the person to a police station in accordance with section 4”, which might imply that nobody can be arrested at a police station. That proposed definition of arrest is circular: a person is under arrest within the meaning of the proposed definition if he or she is to be taken to a police station in accordance with section 4. Who is to be taken to a police station in accordance with section 4? Section 4 applies in relation to a person who has been arrested, so, the definition effectively states that a person is arrested if the person has been arrested.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Agenda item 2 is day 3 of stage 2 proceedings on the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill. I welcome to the meeting the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Michael Ma...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 223, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 224 to 229, 229A, 230, 230A, 231, 232, 232A, 233, 233A, 233B, 50, 51, 51A, 52...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Michael Matheson)
SNP
Good morning. I thank the committee for altering the normal order of consideration of amendments. As members know, the advisory group on stop and search was ...
The Convener
SNP
I thank the cabinet secretary for a very comprehensive trip round all the amendments. I think that members received some explanatory notes in advance, which ...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
I will speak to most of the amendments in the group, if you will bear with me, convener. For 18 months, I was repeatedly told by the Scottish Government tha...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Ind
Stop and search did not use to be a problem. There were all the statutes that could be invoked on stop and search and there was a lot of statutory guidance a...
The Convener
SNP
It is still early and already you are falling apart.
John Finnie
Ind
I know. Forgive me, convener. I will not repeat much of what my colleague Alison McInnes has said, but I am certainly grateful for the movement that has bee...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
Labour members also welcome the progress that has been made on stop and search and the move to putting it on to a statutory basis. However, I invite the cabi...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am happy to support the cabinet secretary’s amendment on stop and search, which reflects the recommendation of the review committee chaired by John Scott. ...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I have heard the point that has been made about amendment 229A being prescriptive but, for me, the important point is that Parliament will have the opportuni...
Michael Matheson
SNP
I am grateful for the comments that various committee members have made. The intention behind amendment 226 is not to pre-empt anything. Instead, it creates...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 226 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Alison McInnes
LD
No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Island...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 8, Against 1, Abstentions 0. Amendment 226 agreed to. Amendments 227 and 228 moved—Michael Matheson—and agreed to. Amen...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 229A be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) McDougall, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotlan...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 4, Abstentions 0. Amendment 229A agreed to. Amendment 229, as amended, agreed to. Amendment 230 moved—Michae...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 52 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) McDougall, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotlan...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 4, Abstentions 0. Amendment 52 agreed to. Section 1—Power of a constable
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 111, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 112 and 37.
Michael Matheson
SNP
I will deal first with amendments 111 and 112, both of which are relatively minor, before turning to amendment 37 and the proposed definition of arrest. Ame...
The Convener
SNP
So far so good.
Michael Matheson
SNP
Part 1 is, in a sense, an extended definition of arrest. It sets out who can exercise the power of arrest, the grounds for doing so, the rights of the person...
The Convener
SNP
I call Elaine Murray to speak to amendment 37, in the name of John Pentland.
Elaine Murray
Lab
I just want to say a few words regarding amendment 37, in the name of my colleague John Pentland. I should point out that, despite the hilarity over the word...
The Convener
SNP
I think that that is deuce.
Elaine Murray
Lab
It was drafted by people who know what they are doing. However, as the cabinet secretary implied in his remarks, the reason why John Pentland lodged the ame...